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I certainly wouldn't mind a show with Faith as a main character! Though at the same time, while I normally hate it when characters are killed and immediately brought back (I dropped Farscape for a long while specifically because I knew they were going to pull this), I think Buffy's death is one of those that work, precisely because it's shown to be a huge deal; you don't just die and come back and everything's hunky dory.
she's great fun, and much better entertainment value than Connor.
Hell yes.
she's great fun, and much better entertainment value than Connor.
Hell yes.
Hi! *waves* I'm not sure if we've spoken before. I found this link on the Sunnydale Herald.
I love both scenes, but I can definitely see the unpleasant patterns of women sacrificing themselves for life. I think Darla's is worse in that regard, killing herself for her unborn child (and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS). Buffy's at least has a possible interpretation of warrior-sacrificing-herself-to-save-her-family, with Dawn as damsel-in-distress rather than child, which is a little more gender subversive. It also helps that Buffy gets better. I suppose Darla coming back to life had become a cliche by that point, but it still would have been nice to see her again.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
I love both scenes, but I can definitely see the unpleasant patterns of women sacrificing themselves for life. I think Darla's is worse in that regard, killing herself for her unborn child (and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS). Buffy's at least has a possible interpretation of warrior-sacrificing-herself-to-save-her-family, with Dawn as damsel-in-distress rather than child, which is a little more gender subversive. It also helps that Buffy gets better. I suppose Darla coming back to life had become a cliche by that point, but it still would have been nice to see her again.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
I get that; while I do think "Chosen" is a far more hopeful ending - both for the survivors and for the story at large - s7 is the second weakest season of the show for me, and there are a lot of ways it could have been done better. And yes, I see that in "Not Fade Away" too. I guess my big problem with Buffy ending after s5 would be that... as I said somewhere else, I can picture Quentin Travers hearing of Buffy's death and muttering "Well, it certainly took her long enough. Next, please!" In the end, the events in Buffy wouldn't change the story at large, she'd be just another soldier drafted and sacrificed in a war she had no control over.
But yeah, as much as I love s6, there are times when I want to just hug the characters and tell them "You know, you could have just left her in the ground and moved on."
But yeah, as much as I love s6, there are times when I want to just hug the characters and tell them "You know, you could have just left her in the ground and moved on."
Hi, and welcome! :)
and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS
Oh yes. I'm not sure they even realised how consistent they were about this, though I'm not sure how they couldn't see it... I mean, Darla, Cordelia, and Fred all go roughly the same way. And that's after Cordelia gets knocked up with demon spawn about 4 times. I'm not saying the trope should never ever under any circumstances be used, but come on.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
Absolutely.
and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS
Oh yes. I'm not sure they even realised how consistent they were about this, though I'm not sure how they couldn't see it... I mean, Darla, Cordelia, and Fred all go roughly the same way. And that's after Cordelia gets knocked up with demon spawn about 4 times. I'm not saying the trope should never ever under any circumstances be used, but come on.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
Absolutely.
The one thing that would make me want to throw things at the screen more than Darla staking herself so Connor could be born would be Tim Minear's original idea of Angel doing it. Apart from my personal issues with pregnancy and lethal complications I think my big problem is that the whole thing is written as Angel's story not Darla's. Buffy death scene in The Gift makes me uneasy because I can see the similarities to Darla's (otherwise it's standard epic narrative made infinitely more interesting by S6) but Buffy *is* the protagonist which makes it bearable and Dawn isn't asked to carry the burden of her parent's hopes the world can forgive them but to just to live in it.
You're joking, right? The correct meaning of 'theory' pre-dates the colloquial meaning by centuries.
I don't know... I'm completely with you on the sadly common misunderstanding of the word "theory" in scientific contexts, and there's really no defending the Season 8 clusterfuck, but using the word "theory" to mean "slightly qualified guess" in regular conversation is pretty widely accepted and has been for a long time. The word has two different meanings depending on the context. That's exactly why creationists et al can get away with the "It's just a theory" nonsense.
That said, it would be fun to do a Serious Scientific AU of that scene. Let's see, Giles as Newton, Buffy as Einstein, Willow as Feynman, Tara as Hawking, Xander as Bill Bryson, and Anya as an Intelligent Design supporter... :)
JESUS! JESUS, IT MUST BE JESUUUUUUS! ...Or maybe aliens.
That said, it would be fun to do a Serious Scientific AU of that scene. Let's see, Giles as Newton, Buffy as Einstein, Willow as Feynman, Tara as Hawking, Xander as Bill Bryson, and Anya as an Intelligent Design supporter... :)
JESUS! JESUS, IT MUST BE JESUUUUUUS! ...Or maybe aliens.
Edited 2012-07-20 13:01 (UTC)
'A long time' means something very different from the perspective of someone nearly 60. And the colloquial meaning of 'theory' has changed dramatically in my lifetime. It used to mean 'a suggested explanation which seems to fit the facts as I see them' and if I was writing a story set prior to November 6th 2001 I'd be very wary about having a character use it in any other way. If I was writing a story set after that date, and if the speaking character was a layman, I'd use it to mean 'a wild guess with no supporting evidence whatsoever'.
The one thing that would make me want to throw things at the screen more than Darla staking herself so Connor could be born would be Tim Minear's original idea of Angel doing it.
....WHAT.
....WHAT.
I remember when the spoilers were leaked for The Gift even before UPN started advertising that BtVS was moving to their channel and spoiled a lot of people, some fans were like, "How can the show continue without Buffy? Can there be a Buffy the Vampire Slayer without Buffy herself?" My thought was yes! That thought, of course, did not come from someone who worked in television, but I thought it could be done. And now that you mention it, there's the plotline for a S6 without Buffy-- Giles realizes that things don't have to be the same, the cycle can be broken. Maybe he talks to the Scoobies, and they try to get to the next Slayer before the Watchers Council. Maybe they start out the season with the same selfishness of replacing/replicating Buffy but then as they get to know the new Slayer, they realize just how wrong they were for doing that. By the end of the season, it sinks in-- Buffy is never coming back, and they have to move on. This is when the reality of grief would hit, and it would be heartbreaking but it would be a glorious payoff. Now, I'm thinking about how awesome that would have been and how Season Six pissed on everything I loved (and the musical episode will never make it worth it).
Oh, wait, I just realized that the Slayer line didn't pass through Buffy anymore in S6. Buffy > Kendra > Faith > Next Slayer. Still, the Scoobies could have been proactive about the next Slayer if anything happened to Faith.
^^ I think the mechanics of The Great Summers' Blood Debate is being over-thought. The genre relies so heavily on deux ex machina that the fine detailing is much less important than the emotional resonance. So, yes to the above.
Oh yes. I'm not sure they even realised how consistent they were about this, though I'm not sure how they couldn't see it... I mean, Darla, Cordelia, and Fred all go roughly the same way.
Now that is something that never hit me! Perhaps Doyle also meets the 'one death for the greater good' trope as well, but he's no where near as explicitly trading one life for another as the female characters.
Oh yes. I'm not sure they even realised how consistent they were about this, though I'm not sure how they couldn't see it... I mean, Darla, Cordelia, and Fred all go roughly the same way.
Now that is something that never hit me! Perhaps Doyle also meets the 'one death for the greater good' trope as well, but he's no where near as explicitly trading one life for another as the female characters.
I had to google Tim Minear to remember why I had this vague sense that he's a man with occasionally godawful ideas, and I came up with this (http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=12674) (trigger warning: rape).
Minear talks about the Darla arc amongst other things in an interview that was linked at Whedonesque:
http://whedonesque.com/comments/26357
I slightly misremembered it according to Emmie's summary in the comments
"Some of the storytelling decisions revealed in this interview are incredibly interesting. Like how Angel was even more rough with Darla before sleeping with her and that Tim had originally planned for Angel to stake Darla upon consummation. Then there was discussion of Darla's death to give life to Connor, again originally planned as a doctor staking Darla as like a vampire c-section -- and Joss suggested that she stake herself."
http://whedonesque.com/comments/26357
I slightly misremembered it according to Emmie's summary in the comments
"Some of the storytelling decisions revealed in this interview are incredibly interesting. Like how Angel was even more rough with Darla before sleeping with her and that Tim had originally planned for Angel to stake Darla upon consummation. Then there was discussion of Darla's death to give life to Connor, again originally planned as a doctor staking Darla as like a vampire c-section -- and Joss suggested that she stake herself."
Yes and everything to all of that. (I read #40 and the way it reverses Chosen made me wish for a mind-wipe spell, or at least scrub my eyeballs out.)
I love the final scene in the Gift - love the whole episode on an emotional level, cry buckets and buckets - but if I start to think about it, then I hit that entire "female hero who sacrifices herself for the sake of family". Which isn't just a cliche - it's practically an expectation, or has been historically, for women. So I DON'T want it to end there.
I love the final scene in the Gift - love the whole episode on an emotional level, cry buckets and buckets - but if I start to think about it, then I hit that entire "female hero who sacrifices herself for the sake of family". Which isn't just a cliche - it's practically an expectation, or has been historically, for women. So I DON'T want it to end there.
both are also part of a disturbing pattern of sacrificial woman/motherhood in Joss's work (and indeed in Western literature in general.) Heroes win by beating the bad guy; heroines win by sacrificing themselves.
*nods vigorously*
And the important word here is "pattern".
*nods vigorously*
And the important word here is "pattern".
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