a) you get careless about why s/he* keeps making the same mistakes again and again, since the audience knows that s/he'll atone for them anyway. So whenever you need the story to have some extra catharsis, you have the hero do something s/he shouldn't, for which s/he then feels bad. In which case the question becomes, at what point does the hero become a complete monster who still keeps doing the things s/he feels sorry for? If the only person who benefits from said atonement is the atoner him/herself, who gets to feel good about the fact that at least s/he feels bad... is that really the point of the redemption narrative? (Actually, it may well be, but that's a different discussion.)
And on the other side:
b) If the Atoner needs to atone, then there must be something for them to atone for. Therefore, the more they have to atone for, the nobler they are. Therefore, while the horrible things they did may look horrible, they are in fact not only forgivable but even admirable - because without them, how could there be these powerful redemption stories that help us feel good? Except... once you've done this a couple of times, and the aforementioned laziness/blaseness sets in, it's easy for the story to shift from one about redemption to one that glorifies villainy and calls it redemption.
Very well put. And both explain quite neatly why Angel's redemption storyline never worked for me. It also explains my issues with Angel the Series and the Buffy/Angel comics.
I will give Bill Willingham credit for one thing - and one thing only, his statement that removing a superhero's agency, making them responsible for horrible deeds, then giving their agency back and making them feel guilty for it - over and over and over again...sort of strikes him as the definition of evil. Why did the character allow it? Permitting someone to manipulate them continuously. And not taking full responsibility for it - isn't that evil too? How can you atone, if you don't consider yourself responsible? No, it wasn't me, it was that other guy who possessed me! ie. Hyena!Xander or Angelus, or Evil! Cordy or Dark!Willow.
What made Spike and Faith's stories work so well...was they didn't blame someone else. Spike blamed Spike. He didn't say...oh, I was soulless at the time. That was me. Even the trigger, he took responsibility for, stating - I let her manipulate me so I wouldn't have to feel the pain, wouldn't have to hurt. Angel never is self-aware enough to figure out that's what he as Angelus is doing, he's letting someone else manipulate him so he doesn't have to feel pain. Then mopes about it afterwards. With Spike and Faith - you see the moment of self-awareness. I screwed up. I must do something to change. Faith sends herself to prison. Spike gets a soul. Angel mopes.
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Date: 2012-04-13 01:48 am (UTC)And on the other side:
b) If the Atoner needs to atone, then there must be something for them to atone for. Therefore, the more they have to atone for, the nobler they are. Therefore, while the horrible things they did may look horrible, they are in fact not only forgivable but even admirable - because without them, how could there be these powerful redemption stories that help us feel good? Except... once you've done this a couple of times, and the aforementioned laziness/blaseness sets in, it's easy for the story to shift from one about redemption to one that glorifies villainy and calls it redemption.
Very well put. And both explain quite neatly why Angel's redemption storyline never worked for me. It also explains my issues with Angel the Series and the Buffy/Angel comics.
I will give Bill Willingham credit for one thing - and one thing only,
his statement that removing a superhero's agency, making them responsible for horrible deeds, then giving their agency back and making them feel guilty for it - over and over and over again...sort of strikes him as the definition of evil. Why did the character allow it? Permitting someone to manipulate them continuously. And not taking full responsibility for it - isn't that evil too? How can you atone, if you don't consider yourself responsible? No, it wasn't me, it was that other guy who possessed me! ie. Hyena!Xander or Angelus, or Evil! Cordy or Dark!Willow.
What made Spike and Faith's stories work so well...was they didn't blame someone else. Spike blamed Spike. He didn't say...oh, I was soulless at the time. That was me. Even the trigger, he took responsibility for, stating - I let her manipulate me so I wouldn't have to feel the pain, wouldn't have to hurt. Angel never is self-aware enough to figure out that's what he as Angelus is doing, he's letting someone else manipulate him so he doesn't have to feel pain. Then mopes about it afterwards. With Spike and Faith - you see the moment of self-awareness. I screwed up. I must do something to change. Faith sends herself to prison. Spike gets a soul. Angel mopes.