Tricky. As you can see for my multiple answers for 1, I'm very conflicted about The Gift, but I do love it.
As for Darla, there are loads of aspects of that storyline I know are well dodgy and I ought to be angry about them, but I always cry when I watch her death scene. It's just done so well. Also, every time she gets mentioned afterwards in this context, I cry.
As for Darla, there are loads of aspects of that storyline I know are well dodgy and I ought to be angry about them, but I always cry when I watch her death scene.
Same here. It's a fantastic scene - hell, every scene with her in it in that episode is fantastic.
Lullaby is on some days my favourite AtS episode -- which is not to say that I'm actually sure that Darla's arc should have ended there, but it's so well done. The (fallen female) death generating life is a cliche that should be dispensed with, but hot damn if it isn't one of the series' most passionately written and directed and acted (holy cow!) scenes. And I'd argue that Connor's spending most of the next season and a half angry at Angel and then turning out to be the tool of a higher power trying to enslave the world actually do undermine the story in a somewhat pleasing way, too: Connor isn't really "Darla's redemption," is he? Or, maybe he would be if it weren't for that pesky Angel and the fact that Holtz is still around....
The Gift is on some days my favourite BtVS episode, though usually one of the heavyweights from s6, or one of the other Whedon marvels from s4-5 take it. I actually do struggle with the "same blood" thing, maybe because I used to be into shows where the worldbuilding was meant to make sense. I have a fanwank that is satisfactory to me that ties in with the thematics though:
1) Keyness is needed to open the portal 2) after the first few drops of Key blood, it gets used to Dawn's blood -- the Keyness is no longer crucial to it, but the portal somehow adapts (through magic!) to Summers blood and recognizes that as the Key's form in this world 3) then, Summers blood of any sort will close it, at least of a close relative, which is Buffy.
OTOH, the worldbuildingy part of me does wish that the monk had actually said "we made her out of you!" back in No Place Like Home so that the Montage Of Truth at the episode's end was *all* information that other people gave her, rather than things that Buffy already intuited improbably as it was in the "the monks made her out of me" claim which is still pretty speculative, no? I mean -- I get that part of the story is that Buffy's insight brings her Beyond The Rational, that her pre-sacrifice insight was one that the Buffybot couldn't have made; but I still admit that I'm uncomfortable with the aspects of it that a) don't quite make sense, and b) where I think that the writing obviously *could* have set it up better, and while relatively minor, having the monks give that info might have helped. OTOH, that might have telegraphed the ending more, though, when it comes down to it, I'd rather have a slightly telegraphed but better-set-up ending rather than saving all the surprised for the end.
Oh yeah, right, so: heroic sacrifice! Excellent! Love Buffy! But I'm so glad she came back. I think that her job is the same as ours. We don't "get" to retire at 20 from the trials and tribulations of our life. Buffy certainly earned sweet release, but I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.
Lullaby is on some days my favourite AtS episode -- which is not to say that I'm actually sure that Darla's arc should have ended there, but it's so well done. The (fallen female) death generating life is a cliche that should be dispensed with, but hot damn if it isn't one of the series' most passionately written and directed and acted (holy cow!) scenes.
Very much agreed. That whole scene is blatantly emotional porn and symbolism all over the place (Fred's really just in the shot to be Mary to Angel's Joseph, isn't she?), but it works. Holy crap, it works. And then there's Darla's monologue, essentially undercutting everything Angel has spent the last 2 1/2 seasons doing and setting up the remaining Holtz arc at the same time. And, of course, Julie Benz doing what she does.
And I'd argue that Connor's spending most of the next season and a half angry at Angel and then turning out to be the tool of a higher power trying to enslave the world actually do undermine the story in a somewhat pleasing way, too
Not quite as much agreed, but that's probably more because I'm not really a fan of Connor at all - especially in s4. But interesting, I never really made that connection (and I'm not convinced the writers did, either).
I have a fanwank that is satisfactory to me that ties in with the thematics though:
Works for me. Though most of the time, personally I just ascribe it to the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." When I watch it, I get too caught up in it to pick it apart. When I pick it apart, I usually find myself stuck in other questions than just how it happened.
I think that the writing obviously *could* have set it up better, and while relatively minor, having the monks give that info might have helped
Oh yes. And interestingly, to stretch the comparison with Darla a little further, the shooting script actually has Buffy refer to Dawn as her daughter.
We don't "get" to retire at 20 from the trials and tribulations of our life. Buffy certainly earned sweet release, but I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.
The explanation of the rationale for Buffy's sacrifice is almost unbelievably stupid. The blood ceasing to flow doesn't mean death; I skinned my knee ten days ago and the blood ceased to flow within a couple of hours. I'm still alive. And, if it just needed to be Summers blood, the obvious thing to do was to track down Hank and keep him stashed somewhere in case they needed to throw him into the portal.
If I'd written anything as clunky and stupid I'd never have dared post it - and, in stories where I reference The Gift, I always revise the dialogue so that a death is implicit in the text rather than leaving everyone baffled as to why they didn't just slap a couple of Band-Aids on Dawn. I had to go through some incredible contortions in I Am The Walrus to justify Buffy sacrificing herself for Paul - although it was fun.
I skinned my knee ten days ago and the blood ceased to flow within a couple of hours. I'm still alive.
Are you sure you're not a robot? :) (Sorry.)
And, if it just needed to be Summers blood, the obvious thing to do was to track down Hank and keep him stashed somewhere in case they needed to throw him into the portal.
That would actually make a pretty good fic. "Um, Buffy, why are you blindfolding me? And why is it so windy, and why does it feel like I'm walking towards the edge of some rickety construction...?" "Don't worry about it, dad, just keep walking."
Yeah. When it comes to Angel, I've long since learned to apply the Death Of The Author. (Or to try, at least.) A good rule of thumb seems to be that any perceived ambiguity in the text is always inversely related to the ambiguity they meant to put in.
I had a real hard time picking between the two 'final words'... I went with Buffy's just because while Darla's words were poignant and meaningful, they did touch a peeve of mine in the way it subtly passes the buck of redemption on to the next generation. (Seen too much of that IRL!)
I was confused by Buffy's death in The Gift - I was all "Wait- okay, I can see what you were trying to do with this plot, but you didn't quite get there, but we'll just move past." Darla's death? Pissed me off. Because it removes an awesome complication from Angel's life and a great character in favor of yet another fictional man who begets a son without needing a wife. :P
omg. I like... have issues, there. Mind you, I adore single fathers. I had one.
Darla's death? Pissed me off. Because it removes an awesome complication from Angel's life and a great character in favor of yet another fictional man who begets a son without needing a wife.
I get that. I really like the final scene of "Lullaby", but both her character and what she added to Angel's story was a lot more interesting than what we got with Connor, IMO; she deserved better. Hell, the viewers deserved better.
Both their endings are perfect in a way, but both are also part of a disturbing pattern of sacrificial woman/motherhood in Joss's work (and indeed in Western literature in general.) Heroes win by beating the bad guy; heroines win by sacrificing themselves.
Word. Though I'd argue that Buffy's story was about showing why that sucks and the story works to move beyond it -- Season 7 being about how Buffy isn't enough, that one girl dying for the world, or even ALL the girls dying for the world, isn't enough. (Not that I want to argue about Season 7 :P)
both are also part of a disturbing pattern of sacrificial woman/motherhood in Joss's work (and indeed in Western literature in general.) Heroes win by beating the bad guy; heroines win by sacrificing themselves.
Darla's ending was perfect IMO. With Buffy it was another matter. There was no hint of SMG leaving the show which we knew was coming back, albeit on another channel, so for me that took a lot of the angst out of it. After all the show was called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" so unless they planned to have the Buffybot run around for the rest of the series Buffy would somehow return. Now if she'd died at the end of S7 - that would've been far more impressive and heartwrenching IMO. Then if they wanted to make a BtVS movie or comic series they could always spend the first 10 minutes or the first issue doing a variation of "Bargaining" and off the new version would go.
Heh. I keep wondering what it must have been like to follow the show when it was on the air - I started catching up just about the same time the last few episodes were airing.
I'm pretty happy they ended up not killing Buffy off in the finale, though. I want her to live.
My results are related, but I give Buffy's 'sacrifice' more of a pass because she was the hero of her show, and I don't think the moment undermined her character (ie. if you read it in a gendered way then there are a lot of masculine triumphs she has to balance against it - eg. Becoming and its never ceasing aftermath, which would be a prime target for 'manpain' accusations if Buffy had been a man and Angel a woman).
As for Darla, on the other hand, I think she was short-changed from The Trial onwards. Her relationship with Lindsey was always good, but after she became Angel's special little prize wot got stolen away from him it was all downhill as far as they were concerned. Though she kept a lot of great one liners. ;)
ETA: Also, now that I think harder about why I chose Buffy's final lines - I like the subtext you get from FFL onwards in S5 - and definitely in her final last words - that her death is in some ways an exhausted suicide dressed up as heroic sacrifice. Sooo much better than 'I realise now my sinful impurity; may the child be my salvation'.
Yeah. Plus, Buffy actually got to make a choice there; not a good one, but a choice nonetheless, one which was entirely hers to make. Darla, on the other hand, even had a prophecy detailing what would happen to her. Come on. (Though I still love that last scene.)
Sooo much better than 'I realise now my sinful impurity; may the child be my salvation'.
Heh. Yeah. I do think that that implication is tempered (though not removed) by the fact that Darla really is a pretty horrible monster, and knows it. Then again, the Jossverse has an unfortunate tendency to use "mass-murdering soulless demon" as a metaphor for all sorts of real-life oppressed groups, so...
In an ideal world I'd have the Buffy death permanent - it means a lot less if everyone knows she'll get over it - and continue the show with Faith as the only Slayer and Buffy only appearing in memories, Slayer dreams, and as the First Evil.
As for Darla, I would have loved to have had her as a continuing character in Angel - she's great fun, and much better entertainment value than Connor.
As the years have gone by, I have wished more and more frequently that BtVS ended at The Gift. Parts of that finale were tacked on, but there were a lot of good moments. It ended with a tragedy, but it had the most important element of all-- hope. Real hope that life would continue. Dawn would mature and live the life she wanted, perhaps even parts of that life would have been what Buffy wanted for herself and never got to enjoy. Spike would mourn, but he would continue forward. Willow and Tara's relationship would be all the stronger for what they'd been through. Xander and Anya would have gotten married and been weird together into happy, awkward old age. Giles would have gone back to England and would have found new purpose somewhere. Instead, Season Six happened, and everyone started to make me hate them. Hope is what Season Six and Seven lacked, and without hope, there's no reason to fight. Hope is probably why Angel's finale worked better than "Chosen" for me as well. ... Sorry, I've rambled. I got caught up in too many feelings.
. Hope is what Season Six and Seven lacked, and without hope, there's no reason to fight. Hope is probably why Angel's finale worked better than "Chosen" for me as well. ...
Really? That's interesting. I would have said that Chosen is much more "hopeful" than Not Fade Away.
Hi! *waves* I'm not sure if we've spoken before. I found this link on the Sunnydale Herald.
I love both scenes, but I can definitely see the unpleasant patterns of women sacrificing themselves for life. I think Darla's is worse in that regard, killing herself for her unborn child (and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS). Buffy's at least has a possible interpretation of warrior-sacrificing-herself-to-save-her-family, with Dawn as damsel-in-distress rather than child, which is a little more gender subversive. It also helps that Buffy gets better. I suppose Darla coming back to life had become a cliche by that point, but it still would have been nice to see her again.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS
Oh yes. I'm not sure they even realised how consistent they were about this, though I'm not sure how they couldn't see it... I mean, Darla, Cordelia, and Fred all go roughly the same way. And that's after Cordelia gets knocked up with demon spawn about 4 times. I'm not saying the trope should never ever under any circumstances be used, but come on.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
The one thing that would make me want to throw things at the screen more than Darla staking herself so Connor could be born would be Tim Minear's original idea of Angel doing it. Apart from my personal issues with pregnancy and lethal complications I think my big problem is that the whole thing is written as Angel's story not Darla's. Buffy death scene in The Gift makes me uneasy because I can see the similarities to Darla's (otherwise it's standard epic narrative made infinitely more interesting by S6) but Buffy *is* the protagonist which makes it bearable and Dawn isn't asked to carry the burden of her parent's hopes the world can forgive them but to just to live in it.
The one thing that would make me want to throw things at the screen more than Darla staking herself so Connor could be born would be Tim Minear's original idea of Angel doing it.
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As for Darla, there are loads of aspects of that storyline I know are well dodgy and I ought to be angry about them, but I always cry when I watch her death scene. It's just done so well. Also, every time she gets mentioned afterwards in this context, I cry.
:Is a softy:
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Same here. It's a fantastic scene - hell, every scene with her in it in that episode is fantastic.
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The Gift is on some days my favourite BtVS episode, though usually one of the heavyweights from s6, or one of the other Whedon marvels from s4-5 take it. I actually do struggle with the "same blood" thing, maybe because I used to be into shows where the worldbuilding was meant to make sense. I have a fanwank that is satisfactory to me that ties in with the thematics though:
1) Keyness is needed to open the portal
2) after the first few drops of Key blood, it gets used to Dawn's blood -- the Keyness is no longer crucial to it, but the portal somehow adapts (through magic!) to Summers blood and recognizes that as the Key's form in this world
3) then, Summers blood of any sort will close it, at least of a close relative, which is Buffy.
OTOH, the worldbuildingy part of me does wish that the monk had actually said "we made her out of you!" back in No Place Like Home so that the Montage Of Truth at the episode's end was *all* information that other people gave her, rather than things that Buffy already intuited improbably as it was in the "the monks made her out of me" claim which is still pretty speculative, no? I mean -- I get that part of the story is that Buffy's insight brings her Beyond The Rational, that her pre-sacrifice insight was one that the Buffybot couldn't have made; but I still admit that I'm uncomfortable with the aspects of it that a) don't quite make sense, and b) where I think that the writing obviously *could* have set it up better, and while relatively minor, having the monks give that info might have helped. OTOH, that might have telegraphed the ending more, though, when it comes down to it, I'd rather have a slightly telegraphed but better-set-up ending rather than saving all the surprised for the end.
Oh yeah, right, so: heroic sacrifice! Excellent! Love Buffy! But I'm so glad she came back. I think that her job is the same as ours. We don't "get" to retire at 20 from the trials and tribulations of our life. Buffy certainly earned sweet release, but I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.
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Same here.
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Very much agreed. That whole scene is blatantly emotional porn and symbolism all over the place (Fred's really just in the shot to be Mary to Angel's Joseph, isn't she?), but it works. Holy crap, it works. And then there's Darla's monologue, essentially undercutting everything Angel has spent the last 2 1/2 seasons doing and setting up the remaining Holtz arc at the same time. And, of course, Julie Benz doing what she does.
And I'd argue that Connor's spending most of the next season and a half angry at Angel and then turning out to be the tool of a higher power trying to enslave the world actually do undermine the story in a somewhat pleasing way, too
Not quite as much agreed, but that's probably more because I'm not really a fan of Connor at all - especially in s4. But interesting, I never really made that connection (and I'm not convinced the writers did, either).
I have a fanwank that is satisfactory to me that ties in with the thematics though:
Works for me. Though most of the time, personally I just ascribe it to the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." When I watch it, I get too caught up in it to pick it apart. When I pick it apart, I usually find myself stuck in other questions than just how it happened.
I think that the writing obviously *could* have set it up better, and while relatively minor, having the monks give that info might have helped
Oh yes. And interestingly, to stretch the comparison with Darla a little further, the shooting script actually has Buffy refer to Dawn as her daughter.
We don't "get" to retire at 20 from the trials and tribulations of our life. Buffy certainly earned sweet release, but I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.
+ Infinity. Well, not infinity. But yeah.
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If I'd written anything as clunky and stupid I'd never have dared post it - and, in stories where I reference The Gift, I always revise the dialogue so that a death is implicit in the text rather than leaving everyone baffled as to why they didn't just slap a couple of Band-Aids on Dawn. I had to go through some incredible contortions in I Am The Walrus to justify Buffy sacrificing herself for Paul - although it was fun.
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Are you sure you're not a robot? :) (Sorry.)
And, if it just needed to be Summers blood, the obvious thing to do was to track down Hank and keep him stashed somewhere in case they needed to throw him into the portal.
That would actually make a pretty good fic. "Um, Buffy, why are you blindfolding me? And why is it so windy, and why does it feel like I'm walking towards the edge of some rickety construction...?" "Don't worry about it, dad, just keep walking."
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My opinion of the Darla arc is colored by writer comments surrounding it. I try not to let it but it still does and it skeeves me out.
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I was confused by Buffy's death in The Gift - I was all "Wait- okay, I can see what you were trying to do with this plot, but you didn't quite get there, but we'll just move past." Darla's death? Pissed me off. Because it removes an awesome complication from Angel's life and a great character in favor of yet another fictional man who begets a son without needing a wife. :P
omg. I like... have issues, there. Mind you, I adore single fathers. I had one.
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I get that. I really like the final scene of "Lullaby", but both her character and what she added to Angel's story was a lot more interesting than what we got with Connor, IMO; she deserved better. Hell, the viewers deserved better.
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*nods vigorously*
And the important word here is "pattern".
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Shakatany
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I'm pretty happy they ended up not killing Buffy off in the finale, though. I want her to live.
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As for Darla, on the other hand, I think she was short-changed from The Trial onwards. Her relationship with Lindsey was always good, but after she became Angel's special little prize wot got stolen away from him it was all downhill as far as they were concerned. Though she kept a lot of great one liners. ;)
ETA: Also, now that I think harder about why I chose Buffy's final lines - I like the subtext you get from FFL onwards in S5 - and definitely in her final last words - that her death is in some ways an exhausted suicide dressed up as heroic sacrifice. Sooo much better than 'I realise now my sinful impurity; may the child be my salvation'.
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This. A lot.
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Sooo much better than 'I realise now my sinful impurity; may the child be my salvation'.
Heh. Yeah. I do think that that implication is tempered (though not removed) by the fact that Darla really is a pretty horrible monster, and knows it. Then again, the Jossverse has an unfortunate tendency to use "mass-murdering soulless demon" as a metaphor for all sorts of real-life oppressed groups, so...
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As for Darla, I would have loved to have had her as a continuing character in Angel - she's great fun, and much better entertainment value than Connor.
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Oh, now that would have been really, really good!
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Really? That's interesting. I would have said that Chosen is much more "hopeful" than Not Fade Away.
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I love both scenes, but I can definitely see the unpleasant patterns of women sacrificing themselves for life. I think Darla's is worse in that regard, killing herself for her unborn child (and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS). Buffy's at least has a possible interpretation of warrior-sacrificing-herself-to-save-her-family, with Dawn as damsel-in-distress rather than child, which is a little more gender subversive. It also helps that Buffy gets better. I suppose Darla coming back to life had become a cliche by that point, but it still would have been nice to see her again.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
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and it becomes even worse in retrospect with all the other dead-of-mystical-pregnancy women on AtS
Oh yes. I'm not sure they even realised how consistent they were about this, though I'm not sure how they couldn't see it... I mean, Darla, Cordelia, and Fred all go roughly the same way. And that's after Cordelia gets knocked up with demon spawn about 4 times. I'm not saying the trope should never ever under any circumstances be used, but come on.
"Summers blood" makes no sense, but when did Buffy plots ever make sense? It works emotionally.
Absolutely.
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....WHAT.
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