Very much agreed. That whole scene is blatantly emotional porn and symbolism all over the place (Fred's really just in the shot to be Mary to Angel's Joseph, isn't she?)
I think they even say that in the commentary.
but it works. Holy crap, it works. And then there's Darla's monologue, essentially undercutting everything Angel has spent the last 2 1/2 seasons doing and setting up the remaining Holtz arc at the same time. And, of course, Julie Benz doing what she does.
Yes. And Angel *agreeing* with her! "Aren't you going to tell me it's okay?" "No." "No, it's really not, is it?" Eep.
Not quite as much agreed, but that's probably more because I'm not really a fan of Connor at all - especially in s4. But interesting, I never really made that connection (and I'm not convinced the writers did, either).
Maggie is a big proponent of the idea that the Connor dysfunction results at least in part from him being the result of Angel & Darla's coupling while Angel was at his lowest ebb trying to lose his soul. She'd articulate it better than me. But I like the idea a lot. I don't think karma actually works that way directly, but I do think that there is something appropriate about Angel putting his hopes on Connor when he is -- well, he was conceived both because Angel sought out a life for Darla honourably in The Trial, and because he totally wanted to lose his soul in Reprise. And Connor is screwed up because both his parents are murderers; because they spurred Holtz on to vengeance; and because the Divine Plan Angel hoped was running things turned out to be, well, Jasmine. He ends up selling his own soul to fix Connor's, rather than maybe find a way to live with Connor's being partially broken. (But it's always hard to know what options Angel actually had with Connor in "Home"; I mostly feel that nearly anything would be better than "sell his friends out and do memory wipe to remake Connor as a perfect version," but it's also true that Angel didn't have any easy answers.)
Works for me. Though most of the time, personally I just ascribe it to the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." When I watch it, I get too caught up in it to pick it apart. When I pick it apart, I usually find myself stuck in other questions than just how it happened.
Right right. The MST3K mantra is a life-saver. (That's the way I usually deal with the Xander OMWF thing too, in addition to what I say in the other thread.)
Oh yes. And interestingly, to stretch the comparison with Darla a little further, the shooting script actually has Buffy refer to Dawn as her daughter.
Ooh. I do think that there is a strong mother/daughter element to it. (Have you heard the theory that Dawn's abdominal bleeding is a menstruation metaphor? Which -- is not really the point itself, but more that it's part of the whole blood-is-life and blood-is-procreational-life metaphors running through the episode.)
The big difference with Darla is that while I don't actually think that "fallen woman seeks redemption through childbirth" is a great story to be repeated all the time -- ultimately Darla was evil, in story, and killed thousands of people; and she had been cheating death as a vampire for 400 years. This is still mitigated by a lot of things -- she had no chance at life, which was cut too short by her being forced into prostitution and dying of syphilis. But if we take it in universe, she still fed off the lives of others for 400 years, and so dying for them has a certain poetic something that is probably what makes the emotional porn work.
the idea that the Connor dysfunction results at least in part from him being the result of Angel & Darla's coupling while Angel was at his lowest ebb trying to lose his soul
That works, though maybe a bit Lamarckian for my tastes. (And now I'm thinking about how the narrator in Tristram Shandy has his entire destiny determined by his father being distracted and looking at the clock just as he impregnates his wife...) That said, he was conceived both because Angel sought out a life for Darla honourably in The Trial, and because he totally wanted to lose his soul in Reprise makes it a pretty beautiful metaphor.
Have you heard the theory that Dawn's abdominal bleeding is a menstruation metaphor?
I'm not sure if there's anything in BtVS which hasn't been called a menstruation metaphor. :)
ultimately Darla was evil, in story, and killed thousands of people; and she had been cheating death as a vampire for 400 years
(I have this plotbunny, which I've never managed to make work; Darla's mother travelling to the New World specifically to give her daughter a life of opportunities she never had. Hello to the irony. I keep getting caught up on historical details (though in my headcanon, the Virginia colonization happened a few years earlier - something to do with the Roanoke colony and a Chowanoc Slayer), and the fact that I can't name Darla within the story.)
Hm, WHATEVER COULD YOU BE REFERRING TO ABOUT THE NEXT SEASON? You know, s1's Expecting is a terrible episode, but it does end with Cordy NOT giving birth to a demon spawn. (Come to think of it, it's pretty weird that Cordelia's SECOND, third if you count "Bad Eggs," "demon spawn" incident is in Epiphany, right after Connor's conception.)
(I have this plotbunny, which I've never managed to make work; Darla's mother travelling to the New World specifically to give her daughter a life of opportunities she never had. Hello to the irony. I keep getting caught up on historical details (though in my headcanon, the Virginia colonization happened a few years earlier - something to do with the Roanoke colony and a Chowanoc Slayer), and the fact that I can't name Darla within the story.)
"And she had a beautiful and somewhat raspy voice and had blonde hair...." I love the irony, too.
Cordelia's SECOND, third if you count "Bad Eggs," "demon spawn" incident
And then there's "Some Assembly Required", "Reptile Boy", "Through The Looking Glass"... The amount of episodes centered around someone needing to procreate with Cordelia really is remarkable.
It's interesting that W&H, in "Through the Looking Glass," play the same role that Jasmine plays in "Apocalypse, Nowish," effectively. Except W&H are the bad guys and the PtB were supposed to be the good guys. Cordy was perceptive in saying "the powers that screw you," sadly.
I like that. But the problem is less in coming up with a name, and more that I need to have a 4-year-old girl in the story with a new name that readers will recognise as Darla without me ending the story on "And that little girl grew up to be..."
Also, not making the story anvilicious is a bit of a challenge.
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no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 12:26 pm (UTC)I think they even say that in the commentary.
but it works. Holy crap, it works. And then there's Darla's monologue, essentially undercutting everything Angel has spent the last 2 1/2 seasons doing and setting up the remaining Holtz arc at the same time. And, of course, Julie Benz doing what she does.
Yes. And Angel *agreeing* with her! "Aren't you going to tell me it's okay?" "No." "No, it's really not, is it?" Eep.
Not quite as much agreed, but that's probably more because I'm not really a fan of Connor at all - especially in s4. But interesting, I never really made that connection (and I'm not convinced the writers did, either).
Maggie is a big proponent of the idea that the Connor dysfunction results at least in part from him being the result of Angel & Darla's coupling while Angel was at his lowest ebb trying to lose his soul. She'd articulate it better than me. But I like the idea a lot. I don't think karma actually works that way directly, but I do think that there is something appropriate about Angel putting his hopes on Connor when he is -- well, he was conceived both because Angel sought out a life for Darla honourably in The Trial, and because he totally wanted to lose his soul in Reprise. And Connor is screwed up because both his parents are murderers; because they spurred Holtz on to vengeance; and because the Divine Plan Angel hoped was running things turned out to be, well, Jasmine. He ends up selling his own soul to fix Connor's, rather than maybe find a way to live with Connor's being partially broken. (But it's always hard to know what options Angel actually had with Connor in "Home"; I mostly feel that nearly anything would be better than "sell his friends out and do memory wipe to remake Connor as a perfect version," but it's also true that Angel didn't have any easy answers.)
Works for me. Though most of the time, personally I just ascribe it to the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." When I watch it, I get too caught up in it to pick it apart. When I pick it apart, I usually find myself stuck in other questions than just how it happened.
Right right. The MST3K mantra is a life-saver. (That's the way I usually deal with the Xander OMWF thing too, in addition to what I say in the other thread.)
Oh yes. And interestingly, to stretch the comparison with Darla a little further, the shooting script actually has Buffy refer to Dawn as her daughter.
Ooh. I do think that there is a strong mother/daughter element to it. (Have you heard the theory that Dawn's abdominal bleeding is a menstruation metaphor? Which -- is not really the point itself, but more that it's part of the whole blood-is-life and blood-is-procreational-life metaphors running through the episode.)
The big difference with Darla is that while I don't actually think that "fallen woman seeks redemption through childbirth" is a great story to be repeated all the time -- ultimately Darla was evil, in story, and killed thousands of people; and she had been cheating death as a vampire for 400 years. This is still mitigated by a lot of things -- she had no chance at life, which was cut too short by her being forced into prostitution and dying of syphilis. But if we take it in universe, she still fed off the lives of others for 400 years, and so dying for them has a certain poetic something that is probably what makes the emotional porn work.
cont'd
no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 12:54 pm (UTC)Oh yes.
the idea that the Connor dysfunction results at least in part from him being the result of Angel & Darla's coupling while Angel was at his lowest ebb trying to lose his soul
That works, though maybe a bit Lamarckian for my tastes. (And now I'm thinking about how the narrator in Tristram Shandy has his entire destiny determined by his father being distracted and looking at the clock just as he impregnates his wife...) That said, he was conceived both because Angel sought out a life for Darla honourably in The Trial, and because he totally wanted to lose his soul in Reprise makes it a pretty beautiful metaphor.
Have you heard the theory that Dawn's abdominal bleeding is a menstruation metaphor?
I'm not sure if there's anything in BtVS which hasn't been called a menstruation metaphor. :)
ultimately Darla was evil, in story, and killed thousands of people; and she had been cheating death as a vampire for 400 years
Right. The only thing she was ever good for was bringing a child into the world. ...I kid, I kid. Well, to 99%. Darla is a unique character, and it doesn't really do any good to reduce her to a cliché, from either perspective. Ultimately, I don't think the story does that, either; it's just there in the background somewhere, especially with what's going to happen next season...
(I have this plotbunny, which I've never managed to make work; Darla's mother travelling to the New World specifically to give her daughter a life of opportunities she never had. Hello to the irony. I keep getting caught up on historical details (though in my headcanon, the Virginia colonization happened a few years earlier - something to do with the Roanoke colony and a Chowanoc Slayer), and the fact that I can't name Darla within the story.)
no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 01:07 pm (UTC)Hm, WHATEVER COULD YOU BE REFERRING TO ABOUT THE NEXT SEASON? You know, s1's Expecting is a terrible episode, but it does end with Cordy NOT giving birth to a demon spawn. (Come to think of it, it's pretty weird that Cordelia's SECOND, third if you count "Bad Eggs," "demon spawn" incident is in Epiphany, right after Connor's conception.)
(I have this plotbunny, which I've never managed to make work; Darla's mother travelling to the New World specifically to give her daughter a life of opportunities she never had. Hello to the irony. I keep getting caught up on historical details (though in my headcanon, the Virginia colonization happened a few years earlier - something to do with the Roanoke colony and a Chowanoc Slayer), and the fact that I can't name Darla within the story.)
"And she had a beautiful and somewhat raspy voice and had blonde hair...." I love the irony, too.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 02:36 pm (UTC)And then there's "Some Assembly Required", "Reptile Boy", "Through The Looking Glass"... The amount of episodes centered around someone needing to procreate with Cordelia really is remarkable.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 02:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 02:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 02:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 08:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-19 09:04 pm (UTC)Also, not making the story anvilicious is a bit of a challenge.
We'll see.