One poll or another

[beer_good_foamy]

Here's a rewatch-inspired poll, presented with no preamble.

[Poll #1854770]

Comments

[shapinglight]

Tricky. As you can see for my multiple answers for 1, I'm very conflicted about The Gift, but I do love it.

As for Darla, there are loads of aspects of that storyline I know are well dodgy and I ought to be angry about them, but I always cry when I watch her death scene. It's just done so well. Also, every time she gets mentioned afterwards in this context, I cry.

:Is a softy:

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Lullaby is on some days my favourite AtS episode -- which is not to say that I'm actually sure that Darla's arc should have ended there, but it's so well done. The (fallen female) death generating life is a cliche that should be dispensed with, but hot damn if it isn't one of the series' most passionately written and directed and acted (holy cow!) scenes. And I'd argue that Connor's spending most of the next season and a half angry at Angel and then turning out to be the tool of a higher power trying to enslave the world actually do undermine the story in a somewhat pleasing way, too: Connor isn't really "Darla's redemption," is he? Or, maybe he would be if it weren't for that pesky Angel and the fact that Holtz is still around....

The Gift is on some days my favourite BtVS episode, though usually one of the heavyweights from s6, or one of the other Whedon marvels from s4-5 take it. I actually do struggle with the "same blood" thing, maybe because I used to be into shows where the worldbuilding was meant to make sense. I have a fanwank that is satisfactory to me that ties in with the thematics though:

1) Keyness is needed to open the portal
2) after the first few drops of Key blood, it gets used to Dawn's blood -- the Keyness is no longer crucial to it, but the portal somehow adapts (through magic!) to Summers blood and recognizes that as the Key's form in this world
3) then, Summers blood of any sort will close it, at least of a close relative, which is Buffy.

OTOH, the worldbuildingy part of me does wish that the monk had actually said "we made her out of you!" back in No Place Like Home so that the Montage Of Truth at the episode's end was *all* information that other people gave her, rather than things that Buffy already intuited improbably as it was in the "the monks made her out of me" claim which is still pretty speculative, no? I mean -- I get that part of the story is that Buffy's insight brings her Beyond The Rational, that her pre-sacrifice insight was one that the Buffybot couldn't have made; but I still admit that I'm uncomfortable with the aspects of it that a) don't quite make sense, and b) where I think that the writing obviously *could* have set it up better, and while relatively minor, having the monks give that info might have helped. OTOH, that might have telegraphed the ending more, though, when it comes down to it, I'd rather have a slightly telegraphed but better-set-up ending rather than saving all the surprised for the end.

Oh yeah, right, so: heroic sacrifice! Excellent! Love Buffy! But I'm so glad she came back. I think that her job is the same as ours. We don't "get" to retire at 20 from the trials and tribulations of our life. Buffy certainly earned sweet release, but I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

As for Darla, there are loads of aspects of that storyline I know are well dodgy and I ought to be angry about them, but I always cry when I watch her death scene.

Same here. It's a fantastic scene - hell, every scene with her in it in that episode is fantastic.

[lynnenne]

I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.

Same here.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Lullaby is on some days my favourite AtS episode -- which is not to say that I'm actually sure that Darla's arc should have ended there, but it's so well done. The (fallen female) death generating life is a cliche that should be dispensed with, but hot damn if it isn't one of the series' most passionately written and directed and acted (holy cow!) scenes.

Very much agreed. That whole scene is blatantly emotional porn and symbolism all over the place (Fred's really just in the shot to be Mary to Angel's Joseph, isn't she?), but it works. Holy crap, it works. And then there's Darla's monologue, essentially undercutting everything Angel has spent the last 2 1/2 seasons doing and setting up the remaining Holtz arc at the same time. And, of course, Julie Benz doing what she does.

And I'd argue that Connor's spending most of the next season and a half angry at Angel and then turning out to be the tool of a higher power trying to enslave the world actually do undermine the story in a somewhat pleasing way, too

Not quite as much agreed, but that's probably more because I'm not really a fan of Connor at all - especially in s4. But interesting, I never really made that connection (and I'm not convinced the writers did, either).

I have a fanwank that is satisfactory to me that ties in with the thematics though:

Works for me. Though most of the time, personally I just ascribe it to the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." When I watch it, I get too caught up in it to pick it apart. When I pick it apart, I usually find myself stuck in other questions than just how it happened.

I think that the writing obviously *could* have set it up better, and while relatively minor, having the monks give that info might have helped

Oh yes. And interestingly, to stretch the comparison with Darla a little further, the shooting script actually has Buffy refer to Dawn as her daughter.

We don't "get" to retire at 20 from the trials and tribulations of our life. Buffy certainly earned sweet release, but I much prefer the story where she gets to the point where life is once again preferable to, well, sweet release.

+ Infinity. Well, not infinity. But yeah.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Very much agreed. That whole scene is blatantly emotional porn and symbolism all over the place (Fred's really just in the shot to be Mary to Angel's Joseph, isn't she?)

I think they even say that in the commentary.

but it works. Holy crap, it works. And then there's Darla's monologue, essentially undercutting everything Angel has spent the last 2 1/2 seasons doing and setting up the remaining Holtz arc at the same time. And, of course, Julie Benz doing what she does.

Yes. And Angel *agreeing* with her! "Aren't you going to tell me it's okay?" "No." "No, it's really not, is it?" Eep.

Not quite as much agreed, but that's probably more because I'm not really a fan of Connor at all - especially in s4. But interesting, I never really made that connection (and I'm not convinced the writers did, either).

Maggie is a big proponent of the idea that the Connor dysfunction results at least in part from him being the result of Angel & Darla's coupling while Angel was at his lowest ebb trying to lose his soul. She'd articulate it better than me. But I like the idea a lot. I don't think karma actually works that way directly, but I do think that there is something appropriate about Angel putting his hopes on Connor when he is -- well, he was conceived both because Angel sought out a life for Darla honourably in The Trial, and because he totally wanted to lose his soul in Reprise. And Connor is screwed up because both his parents are murderers; because they spurred Holtz on to vengeance; and because the Divine Plan Angel hoped was running things turned out to be, well, Jasmine. He ends up selling his own soul to fix Connor's, rather than maybe find a way to live with Connor's being partially broken. (But it's always hard to know what options Angel actually had with Connor in "Home"; I mostly feel that nearly anything would be better than "sell his friends out and do memory wipe to remake Connor as a perfect version," but it's also true that Angel didn't have any easy answers.)

Works for me. Though most of the time, personally I just ascribe it to the MST3K mantra: "It's just a show, I should really just relax." When I watch it, I get too caught up in it to pick it apart. When I pick it apart, I usually find myself stuck in other questions than just how it happened.

Right right. The MST3K mantra is a life-saver. (That's the way I usually deal with the Xander OMWF thing too, in addition to what I say in the other thread.)

Oh yes. And interestingly, to stretch the comparison with Darla a little further, the shooting script actually has Buffy refer to Dawn as her daughter.

Ooh. I do think that there is a strong mother/daughter element to it. (Have you heard the theory that Dawn's abdominal bleeding is a menstruation metaphor? Which -- is not really the point itself, but more that it's part of the whole blood-is-life and blood-is-procreational-life metaphors running through the episode.)

The big difference with Darla is that while I don't actually think that "fallen woman seeks redemption through childbirth" is a great story to be repeated all the time -- ultimately Darla was evil, in story, and killed thousands of people; and she had been cheating death as a vampire for 400 years. This is still mitigated by a lot of things -- she had no chance at life, which was cut too short by her being forced into prostitution and dying of syphilis. But if we take it in universe, she still fed off the lives of others for 400 years, and so dying for them has a certain poetic something that is probably what makes the emotional porn work.

cont'd

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Buffy is not evil, and her death being generative is wonderful in the general "we die so that others may live" circle of life stuff; it's also wonderful to see her finding a way that she can resolve her calling and find something good in it. It's a fully heroic gesture and is admirable. But it's not something she deserves, at all; and that is maybe what makes Lullaby a bit more satisfying to me as a full-arc ending. The Gift is wonderful as an ambivalent suicidal/heroic temporary ending, but maybe the fact that Darla really IS just going to continue killing if she doesn't die there is what gives it its resonance. It's sad that that's the way the world is, and we can (and should) blame the male narrative etc., etc. for that, but she also comes to a conclusion that (maybe) Angel should come to, that there is nothing she can do to make up for what she did, and the best she can do is give another being a shot.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

The explanation of the rationale for Buffy's sacrifice is almost unbelievably stupid. The blood ceasing to flow doesn't mean death; I skinned my knee ten days ago and the blood ceased to flow within a couple of hours. I'm still alive. And, if it just needed to be Summers blood, the obvious thing to do was to track down Hank and keep him stashed somewhere in case they needed to throw him into the portal.

If I'd written anything as clunky and stupid I'd never have dared post it - and, in stories where I reference The Gift, I always revise the dialogue so that a death is implicit in the text rather than leaving everyone baffled as to why they didn't just slap a couple of Band-Aids on Dawn. I had to go through some incredible contortions in I Am The Walrus to justify Buffy sacrificing herself for Paul - although it was fun.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I skinned my knee ten days ago and the blood ceased to flow within a couple of hours. I'm still alive.

Are you sure you're not a robot? :) (Sorry.)

And, if it just needed to be Summers blood, the obvious thing to do was to track down Hank and keep him stashed somewhere in case they needed to throw him into the portal.

That would actually make a pretty good fic. "Um, Buffy, why are you blindfolding me? And why is it so windy, and why does it feel like I'm walking towards the edge of some rickety construction...?" "Don't worry about it, dad, just keep walking."

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

I've written it; I'll be posting it as soon as I've done the html. I've incorporated your last lines but will, of course, credit you.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yes. And Angel *agreeing* with her!

Oh yes.

the idea that the Connor dysfunction results at least in part from him being the result of Angel & Darla's coupling while Angel was at his lowest ebb trying to lose his soul

That works, though maybe a bit Lamarckian for my tastes. (And now I'm thinking about how the narrator in Tristram Shandy has his entire destiny determined by his father being distracted and looking at the clock just as he impregnates his wife...) That said, he was conceived both because Angel sought out a life for Darla honourably in The Trial, and because he totally wanted to lose his soul in Reprise makes it a pretty beautiful metaphor.

Have you heard the theory that Dawn's abdominal bleeding is a menstruation metaphor?

I'm not sure if there's anything in BtVS which hasn't been called a menstruation metaphor. :)

ultimately Darla was evil, in story, and killed thousands of people; and she had been cheating death as a vampire for 400 years

Right. The only thing she was ever good for was bringing a child into the world. ...I kid, I kid. Well, to 99%. Darla is a unique character, and it doesn't really do any good to reduce her to a cliché, from either perspective. Ultimately, I don't think the story does that, either; it's just there in the background somewhere, especially with what's going to happen next season...

(I have this plotbunny, which I've never managed to make work; Darla's mother travelling to the New World specifically to give her daughter a life of opportunities she never had. Hello to the irony. I keep getting caught up on historical details (though in my headcanon, the Virginia colonization happened a few years earlier - something to do with the Roanoke colony and a Chowanoc Slayer), and the fact that I can't name Darla within the story.)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

My opinion of the Darla arc is colored by writer comments surrounding it. I try not to let it but it still does and it skeeves me out.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Right. The only thing she was ever good for was bringing a child into the world. ...I kid, I kid. Well, to 99%. Darla is a unique character, and it doesn't really do any good to reduce her to a cliché, from either perspective. Ultimately, I don't think the story does that, either; it's just there in the background somewhere, especially with what's going to happen next season...

Hm, WHATEVER COULD YOU BE REFERRING TO ABOUT THE NEXT SEASON? You know, s1's Expecting is a terrible episode, but it does end with Cordy NOT giving birth to a demon spawn. (Come to think of it, it's pretty weird that Cordelia's SECOND, third if you count "Bad Eggs," "demon spawn" incident is in Epiphany, right after Connor's conception.)

(I have this plotbunny, which I've never managed to make work; Darla's mother travelling to the New World specifically to give her daughter a life of opportunities she never had. Hello to the irony. I keep getting caught up on historical details (though in my headcanon, the Virginia colonization happened a few years earlier - something to do with the Roanoke colony and a Chowanoc Slayer), and the fact that I can't name Darla within the story.)

"And she had a beautiful and somewhat raspy voice and had blonde hair...." I love the irony, too.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

:)

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

My computer crashed just after I finished. Word's auto-save came to the rescue but I had to redo coding it for LJ. It's up now.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah. When it comes to Angel, I've long since learned to apply the Death Of The Author. (Or to try, at least.) A good rule of thumb seems to be that any perceived ambiguity in the text is always inversely related to the ambiguity they meant to put in.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Brilliant, thanks! It's here (http://speakr2customrs.livejournal.com/324447.html), for the record.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

There are some parts that are possibly interesting, like how the archaic notion of the woman sacrificing herself for the child turns completely to hell (literally) even if that wasn't what was intended, but Darla is still caught in the middle and lost as a casualty.

That said, of the 3 times Joss basically redid that storyline after that, I think the Darla arc was his best attempt.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

I had a real hard time picking between the two 'final words'... I went with Buffy's just because while Darla's words were poignant and meaningful, they did touch a peeve of mine in the way it subtly passes the buck of redemption on to the next generation. (Seen too much of that IRL!)

I was confused by Buffy's death in The Gift - I was all "Wait- okay, I can see what you were trying to do with this plot, but you didn't quite get there, but we'll just move past." Darla's death? Pissed me off. Because it removes an awesome complication from Angel's life and a great character in favor of yet another fictional man who begets a son without needing a wife. :P

omg. I like... have issues, there. Mind you, I adore single fathers. I had one.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Cordelia's SECOND, third if you count "Bad Eggs," "demon spawn" incident

And then there's "Some Assembly Required", "Reptile Boy", "Through The Looking Glass"... The amount of episodes centered around someone needing to procreate with Cordelia really is remarkable.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that W&H, in "Through the Looking Glass," play the same role that Jasmine plays in "Apocalypse, Nowish," effectively. Except W&H are the bad guys and the PtB were supposed to be the good guys. Cordy was perceptive in saying "the powers that screw you," sadly.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I think the PTB really look like the guys in my icon.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Darla's death? Pissed me off. Because it removes an awesome complication from Angel's life and a great character in favor of yet another fictional man who begets a son without needing a wife.

I get that. I really like the final scene of "Lullaby", but both her character and what she added to Angel's story was a lot more interesting than what we got with Connor, IMO; she deserved better. Hell, the viewers deserved better.

[rahirah]

Both their endings are perfect in a way, but both are also part of a disturbing pattern of sacrificial woman/motherhood in Joss's work (and indeed in Western literature in general.) Heroes win by beating the bad guy; heroines win by sacrificing themselves.