A few quick thoughts on Game of Thrones

[beer_good_foamy]

(Please note - I'm unspoiled on the books and want to remain so)

1. Am I the only one who thinks Mance Rayder looks and acts exactly like Tom Baker in Blackadder? I keep expecting him to look at Jon Snow and gasp "You have a WOMAN'S sword, milord!" Whereupon Ygritte would kick his ass, because she's just that awesome. (And Jon would look unhappy, because it's what he does.) Seriously, I loved Ygritte essentially telling Jon she's his now and he better be loyal.

2. A bit disappointed that we didn't get to hear exactly what Tyrion told Sansa and Shae. Then again, I can understand why; that had to be one of the most cringingly uncomfortable proposals in television history.

3. Roose Bolton is a fun villain. So far.

4. Gendry's in trouble, isn't he? Seriously, why would anyone fall for that "You're more important than all of these people" schtick. This isn't a story where being important is a good thing. Look at the title of the show, feroldgodssakes. It's a chess game, and contrary to popular imagery, you don't just sacrifice pawns - the bigger the play, the bigger the sacrifice.

5. Speaking of which, Ros and Gil is dead. Littlefinger is really making his moves this season, isn't he? I knew it wouldn't turn out well for her when Ros was adamant about being a former prostitute the other week.

6. Olenna vs Tywin. Please, sirs, can I have some more? And the Tyrion-Cersei alliance is... very very awkwardly proceeding to almost actual existence.

7. There's something here about what I said in this meta a year ago. Tommy Carcetti Littlefinger is playing the full ruthless The Wire-like politician, playing the system for his own needs - "chaos is a ladder" and all that, subverting the traditional high fantasy story about honour and swords and stuff. But is that the story he's in? There's lots in this season about social climbing - the not-so-merry-men Arya and Gendry have taken up with, the Tyrells essentially setting themselves up as the new dynasty, Ygritte and Osha being working-class heroes (Osha knows how to skin a rabbit; Sam doesn't know how to build a fire), etc. That's a different story, one of power structures changing to a different order, but there's still a climb. And then there's Arya's archery scene (significant, that's how she was introduced in the first place back in s1); don't hold back, don't aim, just trust your eye to know where the arrow will land. Very Stephen King's Gunslinger:

I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand; he who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

And like Dany (and Buffy), Arya has more experienced men tell her that she isn't as good as she thinks she is, that she needs to stop and learn and do things the right way. The trick is to separate the useful wisdom (how to fire an arrow) from the bits that say "wait for us to handle things the way we're used to." As Joffrey demonstrated, firing an arrow is easy. The trick is to know when and who to shoot. (Right, Katniss?) There's those who climb, and there's those who tear down walls.

These days, of course, we don't use bows and arrows to kill anymore. But we still use arrows as roadsigns, as turn indicators, and in flowcharts. Fire an arrow in an unexpected direction and you can show people entirely new roads. Or old forgotten ones. (Then again, they're used in weathervanes too, turning when the wind changes. And how gorgeous is that shot of the winter wind blowing in over the North at the end...?)

8. Nobody slapped Joffrey again. I can only assume they're saving up for a huge slapfest in the last episode. They'll have to bring in caterers to feed the people waiting their turn.

Comments

[local-max.livejournal.com]

spoilers the books are written by grr martin hes a man oh woops sorry i just spoiled you

...okay, trolling aside, just about to watch this episode, brb in ~an hour.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

spoilers the books are written by grr martin hes a man oh woops sorry i just spoiled you

Oh yeah? Well... Hamlet dies at the end! HA!

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Ahhh! The worst part is I'm immortal, and have been meaning to get around to seeing that for centuries, and I was just planning to this week...

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

My vengeance is swift and terrible.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Man between this and Stoppard spoiling me about Rosencrantz and Guildenstern I feel like I've been spoiled for the whole play.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

I am largely books-not-telly due to financial constraints. But the consistent slappableness of Joffrey crosses all boundaries.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

That it does.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

7 - I don't think he's either in or out of that story, not really. His own part apparently conforms to that, for now, poor not so important noble from the bad part of the country makes good, inspirational feel good story (from his POV I'm sure it is).

But GoT has consistently proven that the story you're in isn't the only story around. More than one story going on. And I'm sure that the people who are in a social climb story are going to be very disappointed when they realize they're also in a Zombie story.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely. That's part of what I love about the series; every character has their own idea of what sort of story they're in - the only thing they all agree on is that they're the main character in it. :) Some of the stories complement each other, but some are always going to actively clash with others.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm both surprised and not surprised they went there with Gendry. This is merging Gendry with another character (which doesn't completely surprise me as they've never introduced Robert's other surviving bastard son so I always considered it to be a possibility that Gendry might be turned into both at once.) Makes me curious about the rest of Gendry's story...

Similarly, I laughed at the Meera/Osha fight earlier in the episode as it seems a bit meta that these two are essentially sharing a character at this point. :)

Poor Arya. Glad she was getting archery pointers (could come up useful someday!) And unnerved by Melisendre's sight re: Arya. I'm wondering how exactly to interpret that.


I also shocked myself at actually feeling sorry for Ros. What a bad way to go. Ughh!

And I was thinking this morning that what works for Sansa is that she's just such a normal girl. The girl has no game and is never three steps ahead of anyone. She just wants what a teenage girl wants and reacts like a normal teenaged girl would react. Loras is her boy band crush (more than that, it was her ESCAPE! Poor girl.) So while we may shake our heads at her naivte, it's a understandable and identifiable naivte. She's just a kid and just behaving like a normal person... caught in hell.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, intriguing. I've wanted more story for Gendry for some time now, and it's nice to know that someone at least knows who he is... not that I suspect it's going to be all that nice for him.

The Meera/Osha fight was great even without that background, so I can imagine what it must be like for someone who's read the book. "Are you going to punch the rabbits to death?"

I'm taking Melisandra a lot more seriously now than I did before. Whoever that god is, it clearly grants its followers very real power that's not limited to just her personal magic. I'm wondering if we were supposed to think she was genuinely shaken by what she saw, or if she's just playing it up to impress.

I also shocked myself at actually feeling sorry for Ros. What a bad way to go. Ughh!

Yeah, there were quite a few arrows that wouldn't have killed her outright, weren't there? Ewww. (And intriguing parallel between Joffrey and Arya.)

And I agree about Sansa, though I can't help but think that they've pulled her back a bit - she seemed on her way to becoming a lot more savvy in s2 than she is now. Ickiness notwithstanding, I'm looking forward to seeing her and Tyrion interacting more - I wouldn't expect Tyrion to forget that she's a Stark, but at least he's a not-actively-malicious person and has never shown her anything but respect, and he's not afraid of being frank. We'll see.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I sympathize with the show having to deal with roughly a bazillion characters from the books, especially since Martin has a way of having characters disappear from the narrative for a period only to return in a later novel. That has to be really tough for a television series, so I sympathize with their having to make some choices regarding which novel characters to retain and which can be eliminated, with their duties shifted to a better established/previously established/more essential character rather than introducing yet another new face. I've long wondered whether Robert's two surviving bastards might be merged into one, especially since the show's hunt for Robert's bastards never mentioned the existence of the other one. Their taking Gendry to Dragonstone confirms that Show!Gendry is now both himself and his half-brother (How Westeros!)

I think this was probably a smart move by the show. We already have more emotional attachment to Gendry.

My impression of Mel is that she has power but is not all-powerful. So... I don't know.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

My impression of Mel is that she has power but is not all-powerful. So... I don't know.

Yeah, that was kind of what I meant. What she did with Renly could have been dismissed as just her doing it. If that power (and even more of it, since she seems truly shocked that someone can be brought back that many times) isn't exclusive to her but is actually something that others can use too, she becomes a more interesting character IMO.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Kind of makes you wonder whether there's a Westeros Olympus where all those gods are duking it out. I've never had the impression that the Three-Eyed-Crow who is associated with the Weirwoods and Bran was connected to the Lord of Light, but both seem to lend some sort of power to mere mortals.

And then there's whatever it is leading the Zombie horde...

[local-max.livejournal.com]

1. I like Ygritte, but she is also really creepy in this episode -- "I will embarrass you sexually then say hey, at least I'm not spreading the secret that will get you murdered, by the way let's be monogamous and never betray me, OR ELSE" is -- well, marriage-by-blackmail-with-threat-of-death is how everyone rolls in Westeros, but it plays especially weirdly here because it's also framed in terms of her appealing to Jon's honour. Plus, she only got to the position of figuring out he's going to betray her by manipulating him into sex by mocking and bullying him. Jon has actual reasons to be sad, I guess, but he's also too dumb to know he's being played (...which, she probably also has feelings for him, but she is not exactly subtle about essentially holding him at gunpoint and demanding his neverending fidelity).

6. Yes!

7. Yes. Littlefinger might be surprised to know that there are people out there being resurrected after deaths and dragons breathing fire and zombies out there. We don't know exactly what kind of story this is, but certainly the framework he is working in is not going to prepare him for things that have nothing to do with men.

8. I had totally been lulled into a false sense of security about Joffrey -- somehow his abject cowardice at the end of season two made him inexplicably endearing, and the creepy-but-also-weirdly-sweet Margoffrey scenes made him just any other boy with a crush. Of course, he can only express that crush by killing things and he sees people as things, so, naturally.... I mean, ugh.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

1. True, though I suspect it's also that she knows that Jon isn't the sharpest sword in the throne; if she's going to get him where she wants him (and where he himself needs to be, because let's face it, he'd be dead without her) she can't afford to be subtle. Ygritte strikes me as a desert islander who's been watching for ships for a long time; now that she's found one, she's not going to let it pass.

7. Oh yes. Come to think of it, I'd love a scene between Littlefinger and Melisandra.

8. Yep. I'm almost a bit worried for the actor; imagine being typecast as this at an early age... And I'm wondering if Margaery (and Tywin for that matter) know just how psycho he really is. They really don't want to get on his bad side, and there are plenty of people at court who could benefit from "warning" the king about "traitors" in his midst...

[local-max.livejournal.com]

1. Good point. And yes to the desert islander analogy.

8. Well, we in the audience don't quite know how much of a monster Joffrey is, and he keeps getting worse -- so it's hard to imagine Margaery (or Tywin) knowing. Tywin, ultimately, is safe for now because Joffrey surely must know that it is a lot of work to wage a war and work that he is ill-suited for; but when the war ends, well.... Margaery is in a lot more danger. The fact that she has gotten Joffrey deeply smitten will surely not protect her forever; right now she's...safe from him because he wants her but is kind of afraid of intimacy and hasn't yet decided that he can't have it with her. Once he moves past the current uncertain phase and picks a path she is likely to be in big trouble.

It occurred to me how big a risk Littlefinger took by sending Ros to Joffrey -- we don't know exactly how he, um, delivered her, but if she was at all alive (which I assume she was?) then she would almost certainly know something that Littlefinger wouldn't want told.

I forgot to mention, I think that line to Jaime about overplaying his ... position is probably the funniest this show has yet been. I guess they have poker in Westeros? Though, probably it's like poker but spelled differently.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Margaery is in a lot more danger.

Oh yes. Come to think of it, between his psycho behaviour and the fact that we now know (or think we know) that it wasn't his mother who ordered Tyrion killed, there's a certain Norman Bates-ness to Joffrey.

It occurred to me how big a risk Littlefinger took by sending Ros to Joffrey -- we don't know exactly how he, um, delivered her, but if she was at all alive (which I assume she was?) then she would almost certainly know something that Littlefinger wouldn't want told.

Hmmm. Good point. That would be the kind of thing he'd do - he's nothing if not convinced of his own cleverness.

I think that line to Jaime about overplaying his ... position is probably the funniest this show has yet been.

Between that and Bolton shamelessly teasing Jaime about Cersei's current position in the last episode, I'm really liking Roose Bolton. If they're going to make Jaime a more sympathetic character, they're going to have to give him a good antagonist, and I think they've found him.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Come to think of it, between his psycho behaviour and the fact that we now know (or think we know) that it wasn't his mother who ordered Tyrion killed, there's a certain Norman Bates-ness to Joffrey.

If we find out that Margaery stole a bunch of money from Renly before his death, I will be *very* afraid for her....

Hmmm. Good point. That would be the kind of thing he'd do - he's nothing if not convinced of his own cleverness.

Time to break out that "NO I INCEST" image from your last meta, I think.

Between that and Bolton shamelessly teasing Jaime about Cersei's current position in the last episode, I'm really liking Roose Bolton. If they're going to make Jaime a more sympathetic character, they're going to have to give him a good antagonist, and I think they've found him.

Agreed. Speaking of Jaime, I thought Jaime's scene with Brienne in the last episode was fantastic -- and yet on some level I couldn't help adding "...and then I pushed his kid out a window!" to the end of his monologue about how hard it is to be judged by Ned. Granted, they are not exactly about the same thing, but still. They are doing a good job over with Theon of making clear exactly how pathetic "...but people made fun of me! it's not fair!" is an argument (direct or indirect) for being willing to hurt (killing, in Theon's case) kids, so I hope with Jaime they don't forget the introduction to the character.

ETA: It is an open question whether it really was Joffrey-not-Cersei who tried to have Tyrion killed. I'm a little skeptical. I think probably it won't "turn out" to be Cersei again at this point -- it'd feel a little pointless to continue doing those reversals. But I'm not entirely certain that Joffrey really *is* the only person who could give that order; surely King's Guard people are a little more bribable than all that. Joffrey certainly wouldn't object morally to killing his uncle, but somehow I feel like that answer is just a bit too pat; and on some level I think that Joffrey would just let the matter drop after one attempted killing. On some level, I even feel like maybe someone engineered for a King's Guard to "almost" kill Tyrion and for another dude to stop him, for some reason. I haven't really thought this through at all [and I am unspoiled by the books, in case it isn't clear]. But despite Tyrion's speech about only Joffrey being stupid and unsubtle enough to have his own King's Guard try to kill Tyrion in the mids of battle, even *that* seems a little too subtle for Joffrey. Hm....

In general, I do like the show -- but there are some plots which bore me (remember, Robb spelled backward is Bbor!) right now and I am not sure if it's because I'm not paying close enough attention to catch the nuances or the show isn't meeting me halfway.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

If I were Margery, I'd be questioning exactly what I was willing to commit myself to for a title!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It just seems like a very complicated way to get yourself killed, doesn't it? If you just convinced everyone who gets into politics in Westeros to just take up a fun hobby instead, things would be much simpler all around.

This may also hold up in real life.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Funny. You see things as Tywin needing to keep on Joffrey's good side, and IMO, Joffrey's the one who should be trying not to piss Tywin too much.

Because Joffrey's a psycho, sure, but also as delusional as Sansa was. He truly believes being king means he can do everything he wants, but he doesn't realize just how tenuous his power is.

And Westeros is a very bad place for delusional people...

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely agree that Tywin is far from harmless. You don't get to be old and powerful in his circles without some serious game. That said, I'm not sure he realises just how delusional Joffrey is; if Joffrey decides to get rid of someone, he wouldn't think the consequences through. As local_max says above, Tywin is hardly in as much danger as Margaery, but if I were him I'd sleep with one eye open as long as there are people in the city eager to suck up to the king.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely agree that Tywin is far from harmless. You don't get to be old and powerful in his circles without some serious game. That said, I'm not sure he realises just how delusional Joffrey is; if Joffrey decides to get rid of someone, he wouldn't think the consequences through. As local_max says above, Tywin is hardly in as much danger as Margaery, but if I were him I'd sleep with one eye open as long as there are people in the city eager to suck up to the king.

An interesting wrinkle in this which just occurred to me: Margaery is working pretty hard to transform Joffrey into The People's King (by virtue of her herself being The People's Queen). So the number of people willing to suck up to the king is actually increasing, in that it is looking more and more like Joffrey might, via Margaery, get public support -- so that if and when Tywin and Joffrey's interests become opposed, Tywin might actually be in real trouble. Of course, that relies on Joffrey being smart enough to realize what Margaery is doing for him (well, doing for herself, but for him as a consequence) and not making her into St. Sebastian first.

[smhwpf.livejournal.com]

Oooh, these are such good points!

Also - oooh, you haven't read the books. Heheheheheh.

Littlefinger is Carcetti! I am so bad at these spots, or he's a really good actor. I had no idea that Mrs. Gilflower (?) on Dr. Who yesterday was Diana Rigg. That she and Oleanna are played by the same actor - incredible. But we already knew that Diana Rigg is a really good actor.

Charles and Di Dancing in the Rigging? Absolutely! (Sadly I don't think there's much more of that, at least if it follows the books).

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Littlefinger is Carcetti!

Yep. I'm expecting him to start demanding better kingsguard statistics any day now. :)

Yeah, that's two very different characters for Diana Rigg. I honestly didn't make the connection until I started reading reviews. But I'm glad we're getting more and more of her - I'm really loving old lady Tyrell.