One poll or another

[beer_good_foamy]

Here's a rewatch-inspired poll, presented with no preamble.

[Poll #1854770]

Comments

[shakatany.livejournal.com]

Darla's ending was perfect IMO. With Buffy it was another matter. There was no hint of SMG leaving the show which we knew was coming back, albeit on another channel, so for me that took a lot of the angst out of it. After all the show was called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" so unless they planned to have the Buffybot run around for the rest of the series Buffy would somehow return. Now if she'd died at the end of S7 - that would've been far more impressive and heartwrenching IMO. Then if they wanted to make a BtVS movie or comic series they could always spend the first 10 minutes or the first issue doing a variation of "Bargaining" and off the new version would go.

Shakatany

[quinara]

My results are related, but I give Buffy's 'sacrifice' more of a pass because she was the hero of her show, and I don't think the moment undermined her character (ie. if you read it in a gendered way then there are a lot of masculine triumphs she has to balance against it - eg. Becoming and its never ceasing aftermath, which would be a prime target for 'manpain' accusations if Buffy had been a man and Angel a woman).

As for Darla, on the other hand, I think she was short-changed from The Trial onwards. Her relationship with Lindsey was always good, but after she became Angel's special little prize wot got stolen away from him it was all downhill as far as they were concerned. Though she kept a lot of great one liners. ;)

ETA: Also, now that I think harder about why I chose Buffy's final lines - I like the subtext you get from FFL onwards in S5 - and definitely in her final last words - that her death is in some ways an exhausted suicide dressed up as heroic sacrifice. Sooo much better than 'I realise now my sinful impurity; may the child be my salvation'.

[cookiegirl]

I think it means the blood ceasing to flow in her body. Which, unless they managed to freeze her, would mean death :(

[cookiegirl]

that her death is in some ways an exhausted suicide dressed up as heroic sacrifice
This. A lot.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

They could have suffocated her, or given her an electric shock, and stopped her heart then resuscitated her.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh come on, temporary cardiac arrest as a plot point in Buffy The Vampire Slayer? Would never happen. :) (And now that I think about it, that would actually have been a nice little callback... Not nearly as dramatic, of course, but still.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, pretty much. Buffy at least got to come back from it.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Heh. I keep wondering what it must have been like to follow the show when it was on the air - I started catching up just about the same time the last few episodes were airing.

I'm pretty happy they ended up not killing Buffy off in the finale, though. I want her to live.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Plus, Buffy actually got to make a choice there; not a good one, but a choice nonetheless, one which was entirely hers to make. Darla, on the other hand, even had a prophecy detailing what would happen to her. Come on. (Though I still love that last scene.)

Sooo much better than 'I realise now my sinful impurity; may the child be my salvation'.

Heh. Yeah. I do think that that implication is tempered (though not removed) by the fact that Darla really is a pretty horrible monster, and knows it. Then again, the Jossverse has an unfortunate tendency to use "mass-murdering soulless demon" as a metaphor for all sorts of real-life oppressed groups, so...

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

Actually the blood doesn't flow in the body, it circulates. If I'd written the scene I would have had Xander say "Okay, so we stick a Band-Aid on Dawn and everything's fixed, right?" to which Giles would reply "I'm afraid not. This text was written before William Harvey discovered the circulation of the blood in 1628 and it uses the archaic meaning of 'flow'. It stops, in this sense, when Dawn is dead."

Unfortunately what Joss knows about science could be written on the back of a cigarette packet - he doesn't even know the meaning of the word 'theory' - and he may not even be aware that the blood circulates.

[quinara]

I do think that that implication is tempered (though not removed) by the fact that Darla really is a pretty horrible monster, and knows it.

This is true. But Angel knows this about himself as well and he doesn't have to stick a stake through his chest...

I dunno, I think Seasons 2 and 3 of Angel are really, really strong, so I wouldn't really want any part of them to go because that would pull apart the whole thing. But I wish there could have been more Darla. (And more Lilah, if we want to get on that subject... ;) )

[shakatany.livejournal.com]

Well it was always implied that Slayers lived short lives and were considered expendable (as in the fanfic 6 Thousand Miles (http://speakr2customrs.livejournal.com/282192.html)); that a short life was the price of having Slayer powers. If she'd died at the end we would truly have mourned instead of waiting to see what ME would come up with. Oh well we have what we have.

Shakatany

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Could her name be "Goody"? I always enjoy that, even though it's probably not entirely historically accurate, AND because she was nobody's "Goodwife".

[cookiegirl]

Lol, that would be ...interesting... dialogue. I think it's fairly self-explanatory tbh, and Giles does say something along the lines of 'in this context, it means ie. when Dawn is dead.' And the term 'bloodflow' etc is still used (though I assume not by scientists) to described the flow or circulation of blood... I don't think in general that people are aware of the difference, and even if they were, they would also be aware that in the context of ancient ceremonies and ancient texts, blood ceasing to flow would mean lack of life.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I like that. But the problem is less in coming up with a name, and more that I need to have a 4-year-old girl in the story with a new name that readers will recognise as Darla without me ending the story on "And that little girl grew up to be..."

Also, not making the story anvilicious is a bit of a challenge.

We'll see.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

The exact dialogue is
GILES: (reads from book) "The blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more." (removes his glasses) "When Dawn is dead."

He's quoting in the first part, not quoting after he removes his glasses. The text doesn't say that she must be dead, that's Giles' interpretation, and to me it doesn't follow from the text at all. 'When it flows no more' just means 'when she stops bleeding'; after all, 'the blood flows' doesn't mean 'when she comes to life' so why should the stopping mean that she dies?

Stories in which Dawn's bleeding is stopped non-fatally are not uncommon - in one, I remember, a styptic pencil is used - and I've never ever seen anyone in comments or reviews complaining about this not being a valid interpretation. It's just one instance among many of Joss being scientifically illiterate, and not concerned with the internal logic behind the story he wants to tell, and ending up not saying what he means.

The worst example, of course, is the song 'I've Got A Theory' where 'theory' is used to mean 'wild guess with no supporting evidence'. I blame Joss for the Creationists' 'It's only a theory' attack on Evolution as this inaccurate usage of the word was nothing like as widespread before 'Once More With Feeling' aired (and, as Season 8 showed, Joss is himself a Creationist with no understanding of Evolution).

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Word. Though I'd argue that Buffy's story was about showing why that sucks and the story works to move beyond it -- Season 7 being about how Buffy isn't enough, that one girl dying for the world, or even ALL the girls dying for the world, isn't enough. (Not that I want to argue about Season 7 :P)

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

In an ideal world I'd have the Buffy death permanent - it means a lot less if everyone knows she'll get over it - and continue the show with Faith as the only Slayer and Buffy only appearing in memories, Slayer dreams, and as the First Evil.

As for Darla, I would have loved to have had her as a continuing character in Angel - she's great fun, and much better entertainment value than Connor.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

and continue the show with Faith as the only Slayer and Buffy only appearing in memories, Slayer dreams, and as the First Evil.

Oh, now that would have been really, really good!

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

As the years have gone by, I have wished more and more frequently that BtVS ended at The Gift. Parts of that finale were tacked on, but there were a lot of good moments. It ended with a tragedy, but it had the most important element of all-- hope. Real hope that life would continue. Dawn would mature and live the life she wanted, perhaps even parts of that life would have been what Buffy wanted for herself and never got to enjoy. Spike would mourn, but he would continue forward. Willow and Tara's relationship would be all the stronger for what they'd been through. Xander and Anya would have gotten married and been weird together into happy, awkward old age. Giles would have gone back to England and would have found new purpose somewhere. Instead, Season Six happened, and everyone started to make me hate them. Hope is what Season Six and Seven lacked, and without hope, there's no reason to fight. Hope is probably why Angel's finale worked better than "Chosen" for me as well. ... Sorry, I've rambled. I got caught up in too many feelings.

[rahirah]

Oh, I agree that that's what S7 was trying to do (I think their execution fell short in some respects, but that's another thing.) Pity they totally went back on it in S8. :P

[effulgentgirl.livejournal.com]

. Hope is what Season Six and Seven lacked, and without hope, there's no reason to fight. Hope is probably why Angel's finale worked better than "Chosen" for me as well. ...

Really? That's interesting. I would have said that Chosen is much more "hopeful" than Not Fade Away.

[auroramama]

I truly mourned. My fan pair didn't live to see Buffy come back. That made it more than permanent enough for me.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Not Fade Away was more hopeful to me because it had the message of "Even if we die in this battle, somebody out there is going to carry on. We're going to give it everything we have. Let's go to work." However (and this may be because I am extremely cynical), Chosen's ending left me extremely disheartened. It's like, "Oh, hey, a bunch of people just died unnecessarily, and we've painted roving targets for supernatural evil on hundreds of girls and women worldwide that will have no idea what's happening! At least Buffy has a chance to be 'normal' and gets to smile. Let's talk about the mall!" It was really the execution of Chosen that failed for me on multiple levels. On one level, I know that the scene is supposed to be hopeful (and that the mall talk is not supposed to be as glib as it came across), but due to the way lines were said, the direction taken with the final scene, and other elements of the episode (including the faux-powerment of all the Potentials), I was left feeling rather cold by the whole affair. These are my interpretations and reactions, of course.

[itsnotmymind.livejournal.com]

The worst example, of course, is the song 'I've Got A Theory' where 'theory' is used to mean 'wild guess with no supporting evidence'.

That is the colloquial meaning of the word "theory". Really, you ought to blame scientists for using a word that already had a specific colloquial meaning for something slightly different, and thus confusing lay people the world over.