"Season 8" #15 review
Jun. 5th, 2008 12:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beer_good_foamyNo, I didn't love everything about it. But I'll be damned if that wasn't at least the best wrap-up of an arc so far in the comics. The characterisations were consistent, they do a good job of building on the storylines hinted at in the previous issues and setting up future developments, there's both humour and heartbreak, and there's no huge unexplained WTF moment... So, tl;dr spoilers under the cut.
What’s rule number one Renee?
“Don't die.” (Buffy Summers, Buffy the Vampire Slayer 3.03)
“You are always in danger. Right now, you’re in terrible danger. You’re in love with me.” (Buffy Summers, Season 8 #11)
“Never get involved in a land war in Asia.” (Vizzini, The Princess Bride)
“Young men die. And rule number two is doctors can't change rule number one.” (Col. Henry Blake, M*A*S*H)
“You do not talk about Fight Club.” (Tyler Durden, Fight Club)
“Pretend it’s fun.” (The Wannadies, “Might Be Stars”)
So, yup, stop speculating: Renee dies and it’s all very sad. The first few panels of #15 really are great, both in that they really tug at the heartstrings and that they reveal that Renee was NOT immediately dead - for all we know Willow might have saved her, but she got distracted by being thrown out of a skyscraper. After the Warren thing and Willow's newly-acquired ability to supposedly rebuild even her own brain and eyes within a fraction of a second, it’s going to take quite a lot to sell that a character is truly completely Dead For Ever And Ever, Really, No Joke, She’s DEAD And There Was Nothing Anybody Could Have Done, but now I’m 99% sure that Renee is. Really nice writing by Mr Goddard there.
(Whereas Dracula gets out of it very much "alive." Are we supposed to actually believe that a) he lost his superpowers (Sword Of Sudden And Convenient Plot Device, yeah right) and b) that big take-back-the-night speech of his means he's now a good guy? Don't get me wrong, he's pretty awesome in this issue and that speech is a nice complement to the season arc ("The vampire’s the least of your concerns. It’s the old man you need to worry about") but I still kept waiting for someone to go "Wait a minute, did we just let a newly confident Dracula go free...? You think maybe we should alert the Romanian authorities? Boy, if only there were a world-wide organisation dedicated to killing evil vampires." No matter, it's not like they could have killed him anyway.
And on the subject of deaths, does anyone think Kumiko is dead? Seems an awfully off-handed way to kill off a character that's been built up as a very serious threat...
Sidebar: I like that it's a big deal for everyone when a Slayer dies - Aiko in the last issue, Renee in this one - and that it's obviously not something they're used to. Which makes me sad that we never got any follow-up to Buffy2 in "The Chain", but still: they may be fighting a war, but there are no acceptable losses. That's honourable, but also potentially very dangerous.)
But anyway, I suppose the big question now is: where is Renee's death going to lead? Joss likes to talk about "earning the moment," ie making sure that big dramatic events don't just randomly pop up out of nowhere but that there's enough build-up, enough of a reason for something happening to ensure that the audience is emotionally involved enough for the pay-off to hit home - catharsis, if you will. To take the obvious example, we (well, some of us) could buy Willow torturing Warren to death and then spending much of s7 in grief because after three seasons, WE missed Tara as a character in her own right; WE wanted Warren to pay for taking her from us. Dawn's line "good, I'd do it myself" in "Villains" is a classic Joss trick: make one character say exactly what the audience is (supposed to be) feeling.
So far in the comics that's been forgotten more than once, but the whole thing with Renee and the ending here certainly looks like they're building something up with Xander. Trouble is, as nice as Renee was, they'd been dating for 10 minutes. All we knew about her was basically that she liked Xander, that she looked cute in a school uniform, and that she died horribly; and while her death scene is excruciatingly sad, I have a feeling it’s going to be pretty much the most memorable thing about her – and if a character was never designed to do anything but die, then her actions when alive seem a little less important. If Xander got over both Cordelia's and Anya's deaths seemingly without any huge emotional scars, it would be kind of weird if the early death of Renee were to do something very significant to him. But we’ll see. Colour me intrigued, if not quite gutted. A thought: a lot of people have remarked that Xander seems to only own one set of clothes in "season 8" - the commando outfit. Note that in the last panels here, he's in civvies. What's that about? And what is that symbol on his shirt?
Drew Goddard’s episodes of the TV series always had a tendency to be hit-or-miss. The man can write fantastic character studies; hell, he wrote “Damage,” possibly the best Angel episode ever, along with “Selfless,” “Dirty Girls,” “Lineage,” and let’s not forget Jonathan and Andrew’s bits in “Conversations With Dead People.” But he also wrote “Never Leave Me,” “Why We Fight” and “The Girl In Question” – all of which were interesting but flawed episodes that, IMO, never quite managed that classic Whedonverse trick of balancing drama and humour; the sub-Lemmon&Curtis of Angel and Spike in Rome just jars when put next to the heartbreaking Wesley/Illyria scenes. And this arc had the same flaw. As great as the serious bits are – and they are – the cracky elements seem to work against the emotional impact rather than enhancing it. Case in point, the plot and any character development that might arise from it both depend on the funny but nonsensical idea of Xander and Dracula being, um, “friends.” If you can’t buy it, then no matter how good the story is, it’s a house built on sand and it’ll burn down, fall over and sink into the swamp if you think too hard about it. And since we never got any other explanation for their relationship, I suppose we'll either have to take Andrew's explanation as fairly accurate or accept that there's no explanation whatsoever. Can I buy that the Xander from the TV series would have this kind of relationship with Dracula, and vice versa? Nope. But on the other hand... Buffy’s a supervillain, Warren’s alive and Willow’s sleeping around, so what the hell. And hey, at least Xander told Dracula off at the end, good for him. Or possibly bad, since it looks like he really needs to talk to someone.
Ah, Willow, yes. Nice reveal. In true Jossverse fashion you do not talk about what you've been up to on your own, and her bad really does seem way better than Buffy’s both in terms of character and plot development. Her little snake tryst in #10 was indeed about more than just hot girl-on-reptile action: Red’s been playing with fire, and it seems the fire in question isn't in the habit of letting its playmates go. (Sorry, that metaphor didn't quite pan out.) Willow’s been very casual about using magic so far in “season 8,” but we know that nothing comes for free in the Whedonverse and apparently Willow has outstanding bills. (That was slightly better.) Kennedy finding out that she’s cheated on her might be the least of Willow’s problems. Note that we've got Kumiko showing Willow an image that contains a) the Scythe, and b) the Sexy Lady Snake... how did those vamps find out about the scythe, anyway? Again, here’s hoping we’ll get more backstory on exactly WHY Willow thought this was a good idea, but... at least considering the last panel, it seems like we'll find out WHAT she's been up to, so sure. I'm game. Bring it on.
Buffy's also pretty delightfully in character for most of this issue, as she has been for the last five issues (again, kudos to Mr Goddard). I love that her immediate reaction to Renee falling is to protect Xander, and her nervous moment before jumping out of the window is excellent - as is the conversation with Willow as they wait for Satsu to land, hee. But it's interesting that Buffy herself doesn't actually have much to do with stopping the Big Bad here. It's Dracula, Satsu, Willow and Xander who save the day, and at least two of them save Buffy's life in the process; Buffy herself has to settle for stabbing a witch in the back, and we all know how efficient that is.
...OK, that's a bit unfair. She's supposed to be the leader, and nobody ever said the leader has to be the one doing all the heavy lifting; her quick speech as the battle turns is pretty cool, and while I'm sure her orders to EXTERMINATE (sorry, can't write that without the caps lock these days) the fleeing vampires will be thought of as cold by some, it's a pretty sensible order with a lot of emotional weight behind it.
Of course, the big Buffy/Satsu-related ending that Scott Allie said everyone would be so excited about was just "Look! Naked girls kissing!" Meh. I don't know why I don't just ignore his comments; if we leave him out of it, it's a pretty good if disappointing scene. If Satsu was just written out, at least for the time being, that makes two original characters they just spent 15 issues building up only to get rid of just as they start to become interesting. What was the point of the whole Buffy/Satsu thing if it simply ends with Satsu leaving? I have a feeling she'll be back eventually, but... For a storyline that held so much promise, especially after the big row in #14, it seems to peter out a little too easily. But yes, I snickered like the fanboy I am at the "You have no idea" line. And hey, maybe next time Buffy runs into Faith, she'll have picked up some ideas.
Mecha!Dawn is silly beyond words, but at least Goddard went for broke - the only way to make an unfunny joke remotely funny is to go completely over the top with it. What is it with you and Godzilla, Drew? This, Cloverfield, Xander’s rant in “Dirty Girls” ... Hey guys, I think I know how Lost is going to end. Anyway, at least Dawn herself gets to be a bit badass, and it's nice that they've abandoned the ridiculous idea of her not having "proportional strength." Mecha!Dawn's character (being huge, whining about clothes and boys and occasionally smashing stuff) pretty much sums up Dawn's entire contribution to the comics so far, and since seeing a mirror image of yourself is always a signal for character development in the Jossverse, maybe we'll finally get some of that for Dawn.
ETA: Evidently not.
My theory about the Scythe being depowered is proven completely wrong. Darn. However, since Andrew can not only handle himself in a fight against immensely powerful vampires these days, but even ends up saving the day for Dawn when she has to face a monster straight out of somebody's crackfic... I'd say my other theory still holds up very well. ;-)
I suppose the one question that remains unanswered is... what exactly was that massive hit that the Slayers were supposed to suffer in this issue? Because after those first panels, everything runs pretty smoothly (perhaps too smoothly, but hey, 25 issues to go). So was it...
- Renee dying? Well, probably. I suppose the massiveness... massivity... mass of her death will become more clear when we see how everyone deals with it.
- Satsu leaving? Also a possibility, though again, neither Renee nor Satsu have really been important enough in their own right to leave a huge hole; it'll depend on how Buffy deals with it.
- Dracula leaving? Riiight.
- Xander leaving? It's possible - again, he's in civvies - but I'd like to think they would make that a tad more obvious.
- Dawn getting punched by Mecha!Dawn? Well, it is a massive hit in the literal sense...
- Willow turning out to possibly be playing for the other team (no, not that other team, the other other team). Debatable at best, and I think she's proven so far that she's a force for good, though she's obviously got some ties she hasn't talked about. Whatever it is, I suppose that hit is yet to come.
So where do we go from here? The final panels (which I suppose is the comics' version of ending on a montage set to sad music à la "Tabula Rasa") offer a glimpse of our three main characters; "We have a cold journey ahead of us" (Willow talking to her snake lover/mentor/nemesis/whatever), "find what warmth you can for now" (Buffy and Satsu have break-up sex after which Buffy will once again be alone, though probably less tense), "and I'll stand watch alone" (Xander, alone and sporting Wesley-style stubble, pours out what I'm 99% sure is Renee's ashes.) Of course, Drac being Drac, I wouldn't let him stand watch alone over me - we know what he does to his shipmates in his own canon. But that's their problem. So long Drac, you were fun, but get a better biographer than Andrew next time.
I can't quite get out of snark mode, I know. This story had flaws, definitely, but still... I liked it. I don't know how much of it is actual improvement and how much is me adjusting my expectations, but after 15 issues the comics are starting to find their own identity; while I would have loved to see more follow-up on the original series, instead they've taken their time to set up brand new and increasingly complex storylines, and this arc (despite all its silliness) was easily the best so far and opens up for some very interesting future developments. It's not a patch on the TV series, but it is fun.
What’s rule number one Renee?
“Don't die.” (Buffy Summers, Buffy the Vampire Slayer 3.03)
“You are always in danger. Right now, you’re in terrible danger. You’re in love with me.” (Buffy Summers, Season 8 #11)
“Never get involved in a land war in Asia.” (Vizzini, The Princess Bride)
“Young men die. And rule number two is doctors can't change rule number one.” (Col. Henry Blake, M*A*S*H)
“You do not talk about Fight Club.” (Tyler Durden, Fight Club)
“Pretend it’s fun.” (The Wannadies, “Might Be Stars”)
So, yup, stop speculating: Renee dies and it’s all very sad. The first few panels of #15 really are great, both in that they really tug at the heartstrings and that they reveal that Renee was NOT immediately dead - for all we know Willow might have saved her, but she got distracted by being thrown out of a skyscraper. After the Warren thing and Willow's newly-acquired ability to supposedly rebuild even her own brain and eyes within a fraction of a second, it’s going to take quite a lot to sell that a character is truly completely Dead For Ever And Ever, Really, No Joke, She’s DEAD And There Was Nothing Anybody Could Have Done, but now I’m 99% sure that Renee is. Really nice writing by Mr Goddard there.
(Whereas Dracula gets out of it very much "alive." Are we supposed to actually believe that a) he lost his superpowers (Sword Of Sudden And Convenient Plot Device, yeah right) and b) that big take-back-the-night speech of his means he's now a good guy? Don't get me wrong, he's pretty awesome in this issue and that speech is a nice complement to the season arc ("The vampire’s the least of your concerns. It’s the old man you need to worry about") but I still kept waiting for someone to go "Wait a minute, did we just let a newly confident Dracula go free...? You think maybe we should alert the Romanian authorities? Boy, if only there were a world-wide organisation dedicated to killing evil vampires." No matter, it's not like they could have killed him anyway.
And on the subject of deaths, does anyone think Kumiko is dead? Seems an awfully off-handed way to kill off a character that's been built up as a very serious threat...
Sidebar: I like that it's a big deal for everyone when a Slayer dies - Aiko in the last issue, Renee in this one - and that it's obviously not something they're used to. Which makes me sad that we never got any follow-up to Buffy2 in "The Chain", but still: they may be fighting a war, but there are no acceptable losses. That's honourable, but also potentially very dangerous.)
But anyway, I suppose the big question now is: where is Renee's death going to lead? Joss likes to talk about "earning the moment," ie making sure that big dramatic events don't just randomly pop up out of nowhere but that there's enough build-up, enough of a reason for something happening to ensure that the audience is emotionally involved enough for the pay-off to hit home - catharsis, if you will. To take the obvious example, we (well, some of us) could buy Willow torturing Warren to death and then spending much of s7 in grief because after three seasons, WE missed Tara as a character in her own right; WE wanted Warren to pay for taking her from us. Dawn's line "good, I'd do it myself" in "Villains" is a classic Joss trick: make one character say exactly what the audience is (supposed to be) feeling.
So far in the comics that's been forgotten more than once, but the whole thing with Renee and the ending here certainly looks like they're building something up with Xander. Trouble is, as nice as Renee was, they'd been dating for 10 minutes. All we knew about her was basically that she liked Xander, that she looked cute in a school uniform, and that she died horribly; and while her death scene is excruciatingly sad, I have a feeling it’s going to be pretty much the most memorable thing about her – and if a character was never designed to do anything but die, then her actions when alive seem a little less important. If Xander got over both Cordelia's and Anya's deaths seemingly without any huge emotional scars, it would be kind of weird if the early death of Renee were to do something very significant to him. But we’ll see. Colour me intrigued, if not quite gutted. A thought: a lot of people have remarked that Xander seems to only own one set of clothes in "season 8" - the commando outfit. Note that in the last panels here, he's in civvies. What's that about? And what is that symbol on his shirt?
Drew Goddard’s episodes of the TV series always had a tendency to be hit-or-miss. The man can write fantastic character studies; hell, he wrote “Damage,” possibly the best Angel episode ever, along with “Selfless,” “Dirty Girls,” “Lineage,” and let’s not forget Jonathan and Andrew’s bits in “Conversations With Dead People.” But he also wrote “Never Leave Me,” “Why We Fight” and “The Girl In Question” – all of which were interesting but flawed episodes that, IMO, never quite managed that classic Whedonverse trick of balancing drama and humour; the sub-Lemmon&Curtis of Angel and Spike in Rome just jars when put next to the heartbreaking Wesley/Illyria scenes. And this arc had the same flaw. As great as the serious bits are – and they are – the cracky elements seem to work against the emotional impact rather than enhancing it. Case in point, the plot and any character development that might arise from it both depend on the funny but nonsensical idea of Xander and Dracula being, um, “friends.” If you can’t buy it, then no matter how good the story is, it’s a house built on sand and it’ll burn down, fall over and sink into the swamp if you think too hard about it. And since we never got any other explanation for their relationship, I suppose we'll either have to take Andrew's explanation as fairly accurate or accept that there's no explanation whatsoever. Can I buy that the Xander from the TV series would have this kind of relationship with Dracula, and vice versa? Nope. But on the other hand... Buffy’s a supervillain, Warren’s alive and Willow’s sleeping around, so what the hell. And hey, at least Xander told Dracula off at the end, good for him. Or possibly bad, since it looks like he really needs to talk to someone.
Ah, Willow, yes. Nice reveal. In true Jossverse fashion you do not talk about what you've been up to on your own, and her bad really does seem way better than Buffy’s both in terms of character and plot development. Her little snake tryst in #10 was indeed about more than just hot girl-on-reptile action: Red’s been playing with fire, and it seems the fire in question isn't in the habit of letting its playmates go. (Sorry, that metaphor didn't quite pan out.) Willow’s been very casual about using magic so far in “season 8,” but we know that nothing comes for free in the Whedonverse and apparently Willow has outstanding bills. (That was slightly better.) Kennedy finding out that she’s cheated on her might be the least of Willow’s problems. Note that we've got Kumiko showing Willow an image that contains a) the Scythe, and b) the Sexy Lady Snake... how did those vamps find out about the scythe, anyway? Again, here’s hoping we’ll get more backstory on exactly WHY Willow thought this was a good idea, but... at least considering the last panel, it seems like we'll find out WHAT she's been up to, so sure. I'm game. Bring it on.
Buffy's also pretty delightfully in character for most of this issue, as she has been for the last five issues (again, kudos to Mr Goddard). I love that her immediate reaction to Renee falling is to protect Xander, and her nervous moment before jumping out of the window is excellent - as is the conversation with Willow as they wait for Satsu to land, hee. But it's interesting that Buffy herself doesn't actually have much to do with stopping the Big Bad here. It's Dracula, Satsu, Willow and Xander who save the day, and at least two of them save Buffy's life in the process; Buffy herself has to settle for stabbing a witch in the back, and we all know how efficient that is.
...OK, that's a bit unfair. She's supposed to be the leader, and nobody ever said the leader has to be the one doing all the heavy lifting; her quick speech as the battle turns is pretty cool, and while I'm sure her orders to EXTERMINATE (sorry, can't write that without the caps lock these days) the fleeing vampires will be thought of as cold by some, it's a pretty sensible order with a lot of emotional weight behind it.
Of course, the big Buffy/Satsu-related ending that Scott Allie said everyone would be so excited about was just "Look! Naked girls kissing!" Meh. I don't know why I don't just ignore his comments; if we leave him out of it, it's a pretty good if disappointing scene. If Satsu was just written out, at least for the time being, that makes two original characters they just spent 15 issues building up only to get rid of just as they start to become interesting. What was the point of the whole Buffy/Satsu thing if it simply ends with Satsu leaving? I have a feeling she'll be back eventually, but... For a storyline that held so much promise, especially after the big row in #14, it seems to peter out a little too easily. But yes, I snickered like the fanboy I am at the "You have no idea" line. And hey, maybe next time Buffy runs into Faith, she'll have picked up some ideas.
Mecha!Dawn is silly beyond words, but at least Goddard went for broke - the only way to make an unfunny joke remotely funny is to go completely over the top with it. What is it with you and Godzilla, Drew? This, Cloverfield, Xander’s rant in “Dirty Girls” ... Hey guys, I think I know how Lost is going to end. Anyway, at least Dawn herself gets to be a bit badass, and it's nice that they've abandoned the ridiculous idea of her not having "proportional strength." Mecha!Dawn's character (being huge, whining about clothes and boys and occasionally smashing stuff) pretty much sums up Dawn's entire contribution to the comics so far, and since seeing a mirror image of yourself is always a signal for character development in the Jossverse, maybe we'll finally get some of that for Dawn.
ETA: Evidently not.
My theory about the Scythe being depowered is proven completely wrong. Darn. However, since Andrew can not only handle himself in a fight against immensely powerful vampires these days, but even ends up saving the day for Dawn when she has to face a monster straight out of somebody's crackfic... I'd say my other theory still holds up very well. ;-)
I suppose the one question that remains unanswered is... what exactly was that massive hit that the Slayers were supposed to suffer in this issue? Because after those first panels, everything runs pretty smoothly (perhaps too smoothly, but hey, 25 issues to go). So was it...
- Renee dying? Well, probably. I suppose the massiveness... massivity... mass of her death will become more clear when we see how everyone deals with it.
- Satsu leaving? Also a possibility, though again, neither Renee nor Satsu have really been important enough in their own right to leave a huge hole; it'll depend on how Buffy deals with it.
- Dracula leaving? Riiight.
- Xander leaving? It's possible - again, he's in civvies - but I'd like to think they would make that a tad more obvious.
- Dawn getting punched by Mecha!Dawn? Well, it is a massive hit in the literal sense...
- Willow turning out to possibly be playing for the other team (no, not that other team, the other other team). Debatable at best, and I think she's proven so far that she's a force for good, though she's obviously got some ties she hasn't talked about. Whatever it is, I suppose that hit is yet to come.
So where do we go from here? The final panels (which I suppose is the comics' version of ending on a montage set to sad music à la "Tabula Rasa") offer a glimpse of our three main characters; "We have a cold journey ahead of us" (Willow talking to her snake lover/mentor/nemesis/whatever), "find what warmth you can for now" (Buffy and Satsu have break-up sex after which Buffy will once again be alone, though probably less tense), "and I'll stand watch alone" (Xander, alone and sporting Wesley-style stubble, pours out what I'm 99% sure is Renee's ashes.) Of course, Drac being Drac, I wouldn't let him stand watch alone over me - we know what he does to his shipmates in his own canon. But that's their problem. So long Drac, you were fun, but get a better biographer than Andrew next time.
I can't quite get out of snark mode, I know. This story had flaws, definitely, but still... I liked it. I don't know how much of it is actual improvement and how much is me adjusting my expectations, but after 15 issues the comics are starting to find their own identity; while I would have loved to see more follow-up on the original series, instead they've taken their time to set up brand new and increasingly complex storylines, and this arc (despite all its silliness) was easily the best so far and opens up for some very interesting future developments. It's not a patch on the TV series, but it is fun.
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no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 03:42 pm (UTC)If anything I think Willow has done just as bad if not worse than trying to wipe out slayers...she tried to wipe out the world.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 04:36 pm (UTC)She tried to kill her and failed; that doesn't get her off the hook for attempted murder.
she has never killed a human
Actually, she's killed a few, starting with the zookeeper in "The Pack" and, most obviously, the knights
who say Niof Byzantium in "Spiral". Actually, the "Spiral" situation is pretty similar to the one in this issue; it's a kill-or-be-killed situation.she has never been willing to kill a human even if they are pretty darn evil
Again, Faith. Ted wasn't human, but Buffy didn't know that when she broke his neck. She tried to blow Robin Wood up with a rocket launcher (OK, she was under a spell, but still). And arguably, she was prepared to kill Willow in "Two To Go."If anything I think Willow has done just as bad if not worse than trying to wipe out slayers...she tried to wipe out the world.
And when she did, Buffy was prepared to stop her in any way she could. Right now, she's not trying to wipe out the world (as far as we know) and so there's no reason for Buffy to kill her (former?) best friend. Kumiko was trying to kill Willow and hundreds of people - again, what was Buffy supposed to do? Stand by and let her? Call the police?
At any rate, I'd say it's a moot point as I really doubt that Kumiko is dead.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 05:49 pm (UTC)And with the zookeeper...she knocked him into the animals pitt...technically they killed him not her.
I think Buffy will incopasitaite a person so they can't cause harm...but it seems to me that she is unwilling to kill a human being.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 05:57 pm (UTC)Also, she "incapacitated" the knights of Byzantium by chopping them up with an axe. Some of them may have gotten away with nothing but severe injuries, but one or two are most definitely stone dead.
Buffy tries not to kill humans. But what she's never done - so far - is murder anyone (she tried with Faith, and would have succeeded if Faith had been a normal human being). There's a difference.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 09:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-09 09:56 pm (UTC)As far as they knew, Faith did indeed have to die. Also:
And yes, that's an axe.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-10 12:59 pm (UTC)Ok, so proof that she may have fatally injured one knight...that is sad...but I don't think she would have ever consciously made that decision if she didn't need to, and what she has done with Kumiko was extremely intentional...if she is indeed human then Buffy was out to kill her...and not out of self defense since she was not attacking Buffy but Willow...so if Kumiko is human...well then Buffy stabing her is out of character...if she is a vamp...well...Buffy faiths to kill those all of the time (Spike, Druscilla...etc.)
no subject
Date: 2008-06-10 01:36 pm (UTC)Buffy clearly intended to kill Faith because she needed to save Angel's life. She tried and failed - because she hesitated when she realised what she'd done, yes, but she nevertheless set out to kill Faith and ended up doing something that almost killed Faith. Probably would have killed her if she hadn't received medical attention. Faith surviving doesn't change what Buffy intended to do and what she actually did; people are convicted of attempted murder all the time.
Buffy - somewhat less clearly - intended to kill Kumiko because she needed to save Willow's life. She tried and in all likelihood failed.
What's the difference?
If anything I'd say she's much less to blame here, since the situation is different - it's a matter of fractions of a second rather than hours in which to make a decision to save a lot more lives than were at stake in "Graduation Day."
And as weird as it may sound, self-defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_%28theory%29) doesn't only cover defense of oneself but also of others. You're legally allowed to use reasonable force to defend someone who's being attacked - like Buffy did in "Spiral," for instance. Because like you said, she needed to.
And again, what should Buffy have done in that situation? I'd say it would be massively out of character for her to just stand by and watch one of her friends die. I have a lot of problems with the characterisation of Buffy in the comics, but this isn't one of them.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-10 05:07 pm (UTC)I am actually kind of disturbed now, you know, Buffy not killing people was one of my favorite parts of her character...it was her highest moral code...and now I am not so sure if she was ever moral...and I felt like that was the important part of the show and what made it...I don't know...beyond just fantasy and fun...but an actual teaching guide for situations and possibly how to make choices and live ones life....but now I am not so sure it is really all that positive.
Now, I am not sure how I feel about Buffy (the character) at all.
no subject
Date: 2008-06-10 08:53 pm (UTC)Well, Willow was unconscious and only being held up from falling to her death by someone who was trying to kill her. I'd say she could use a hand.
I am actually kind of disturbed now...
I'm really really sorry to hear that. That certainly wasn't my intention. I don't know if it's any help or if I should just shut up at this point ;-) , but.. I do think Buffy is a very moral person, she certainly hates the idea of killing humans, and I think it says a lot about her that once she has stabbed Faith she realises what she's done and is horrified; she tried to kill Faith but when she had the chance to finish her off for sure, she couldn't do it. (And neither could Faith; she punches Buffy onto the roof, not off it.) If Faith had died it would still have been on Buffy's hands, but... they both got lucky.
Part of what I think makes Buffy a realistic character, despite all the fantasy elements, is exactly that she makes mistakes. She screws up, she makes bad calls - trying to kill Faith being one of the worst, and she almost pays for it with her own life when she ends up feeding herself to Angel instead - but she deals with the consequences of those bad calls, and she ultimately always makes a choice, no matter how hard.
If she did everything right the first time, if she were perfect, if her morals were never put to the test... then she'd be a lot less interesting because nobody is perfect, and because life often forces you to make impossible choices where you can't know the outcome beforehand. If doing right in the Buffyverse was always simple, then it would just be fantasy and fun - but it's not; sometimes she has to make choices where NONE of the alternatives seem acceptable. Watch Angel die, or become a killer herself? That's very much a moral question. And as in many cases, she ends up making the third choice: sacrifice herself instead.
Someone on my flist - I think it was
And again, sorry. Cookie?
no subject
Date: 2008-06-11 01:00 pm (UTC)