Win + drabble
Oct. 17th, 2012 10:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
beer_good_foamyThing ye firste: Yay!
Thank you so much! Make sure to check out the other winners here.
Thing ye seconde: A drabble for![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
open_on_sunday and the prompt "Defend".
Wings In Water
Post-s6
Throughout a cold English summer, Giles waits for the coven to hold some sort of trial. They’re an ancient order, they must have rules. He’d speak in her defense, explain why Willow should be allowed to live, why she’s worth saving. He’d tell them of the girl waiting at the library doors on his first day at the hellmouth, six years ago. How he failed her. How he couldn’t keep her from becoming ever more powerful, more arrogant. How he couldn’t control her.
He keeps waiting, but the witches never ask his opinion. They just take care of their own.
Thank you so much! Make sure to check out the other winners here.
Thing ye seconde: A drabble for
open_on_sunday and the prompt "Defend".Wings In Water
Post-s6
Throughout a cold English summer, Giles waits for the coven to hold some sort of trial. They’re an ancient order, they must have rules. He’d speak in her defense, explain why Willow should be allowed to live, why she’s worth saving. He’d tell them of the girl waiting at the library doors on his first day at the hellmouth, six years ago. How he failed her. How he couldn’t keep her from becoming ever more powerful, more arrogant. How he couldn’t control her.
He keeps waiting, but the witches never ask his opinion. They just take care of their own.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2012-10-17 09:25 pm (UTC)And many congrats on the award.
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Date: 2012-10-17 10:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-17 09:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-17 10:01 pm (UTC)I got this whole backstory in my head for this drabble, I almost feel like fleshing it out a bit. (Oh right, I used to want to write a full-length fic about Giles and Willow in England at some point...) Basically, for historical reasons which may be more obvious to them than it would be to Giles, witches' covens may have... opinions on witchcraft trials. So they have other ways to deal with those who struggle.
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Date: 2012-10-17 10:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-18 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-18 12:45 pm (UTC)Also: Congrats. :)
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Date: 2012-10-18 05:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-19 08:23 am (UTC)And, yes, i'm still around from time to time but until December my job is eating me alive severely limiting my ability to read, write and joke around! :)
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Date: 2012-10-19 12:06 pm (UTC)If you do ever have the time, I'd love to hear your input on this (http://beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com/186180.html) meta post I made a while back. There should be a follow-up in the not-too-distant-future once I finish s7 and put my notes in order.
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Date: 2012-10-18 04:10 pm (UTC)This is lovely -- and what I like especially is that it captures something that is true about Giles all the time, but ESPECIALLY true in s6. That is, after all, the season where he KNOWS that he shouldn't make decisions for the girls anymore, but also makes decisions for them in order to ensure that they make their own decisions. This is most obvious with Buffy, "listen, you're old enough to make your own choices, so you have no choice but for me to leave and not support you," and it happens very much in Grave, too, where his idea is "OK, I will give Willow LOTS MORE POWER and trust that she will use it properly, but I will trick her into it." It's a great place for him to be in near the end of the arc, where you can see that he's about to really genuinely let Buffy (and Willow) make their own choices, and that he believes in their right to do so, but he also wants their freedom to make choices to be on his terms. He is getting there, but he's not there yet.
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Date: 2012-10-18 05:19 pm (UTC)...or something. Maybe I should just write a longer version after all.
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Date: 2012-10-18 05:46 pm (UTC)I think that the other subtext I was feeling is that Giles defending Willow at her trial and publicly admitting he did wrong would be a form of redemption for him -- and the fact that the Coven has already outpaced him means he doesn't get to play the benevolent part he's worked hard to envision for himself. Maybe it'd even be a way to show Willow that he's not the hypocrite she said he was in Grave. But Willow (and Buffy) will love him for who he is regardless.
ETA: I don't know if you know mefistopheles/Mark Field, but he's been doing episode analyses over at unpaidsophistry.blogspot.ca. I had occasion to quote you today about Willow, and there was some discussion of Giles in OMWF, who I think reads to me like he is on that knife edge still -- he's right that Buffy needs to make her own mistakes, but wrong that life should be treated like a Cruciamentum which he kind of does there. But I think that saying Giles is unequivocally wrong to leave Buffy (which neither he nor I say, but which many fans do) is not quite right, either.
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Date: 2012-10-19 12:32 pm (UTC)Yup.
I think that the other subtext I was feeling is that Giles defending Willow at her trial and publicly admitting he did wrong would be a form of redemption for him -- and the fact that the Coven has already outpaced him means he doesn't get to play the benevolent part he's worked hard to envision for himself.
There's definitely that, too; s6 and s7 has Giles still try to be relevant (by removing himself, and then by rein- and reasserting himself), which Willow specifically calls him on in "Grave" and Buffy in "Lies My Parents Told Me". And it's not that he's completely irrelevant, but that the things he knows - the things he's sure about - are no longer unquestioned truths when Willow and Buffy redefine the story in s6 and s7. Giles makes Willow's redemption partly about himself and his failures, which in itself is a bit arrogant, but that's because it needs to be partly about himself if it's not to end up completely without him. Please get out of the new road if you can't lend a hand. (An alternate title for this drabble was a Terry Pratchett quote: “Wisdom is one of the few things that looks bigger the further away it is.”)
...or something. I did say I put some thought into the backstory here, right? :)
I haven't been reading Mark Field's reviews, and I'm not sure I have the time right now, but that latest post was interesting. And I agree; I think Giles makes a bad decision, but it's an understandable one. Giles' position cannot just be to stand by Buffy in absolutely everything. (It's a bit similar (though also clearly a completely different beast) to a discussion I once had with a... certain fan who was furious with Tara for "abandoning Willow when she needed help" in the same episode.)
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Date: 2012-10-19 01:59 pm (UTC)The other big thing about this story is that it references the question of whether Willow should be punished, and the oft-voiced criticism of the fact that Willow didn't get punished enough -- with the Coven's tack mirroring the show's, which is that maybe that's not really the best path to take.
I think the other thing about Giles' decision, which I think a few fans miss (or, may just be my interpretation) is that there is real humility in it: he simply is not good enough to be able to deal with Buffy's problems, and is getting in the way of Buffy's own strength. Some people feel as if if only Giles were there, none of the badness in s6 would have happened, which I think overstates the influence the guy was already having before he left -- he was never really able to deal with Willow, for example, and his kind of distant speech to Xander in All the Way about whether he's going to consider getting children seems like feigning interest. This isn't even a criticism of Giles; he didn't sign on to be a father to the whole gang.
Mark Field's reviews are good, but certainly I understand not finding the time. I might check out for a while when he gets deeper into s6 depending on what I'm doing at the time -- I think that he feels that Willow's story doesn't hold together, and, well, it does hold together for me, but arguing that takes time and resources and energy I don't always have.
And yes to the point about Tara. Saying that she should stand by Willow because Willow needs her is a little like saying she should realize that the Maclays must have made up that "demon" thing because they need her and stand by them. There was a recent discussion on Buffyforums wherein norwie stated that he felt that Tara was intended as a kind of an earth-mother self-sacrificing forgiveness archetype, but I think that actually goes against the Tara in the show; one of the best things about Tara is that she actually does (in Family and here) find the strength to take care of herself and get herself away from people who abuse her, even if those people genuinely love her (which Willow does; jury's out on the Maclays, I guess -- I'd say that Cousin Beth is the most sympathetic if only because I bet that she wants Tara to stay in order to have someone else to protect Beth herself from being the sole oppressed woman, but that is probably not an act of love). (Though maybe I find Cousin Beth sympathetic-ish just because she's Amy Adams.) She does forgive Willow too quickly, in the end, but even in Entropy it's not so clear to me that she's actually "forgiven" her per se so much as acknowledged that her need for Willow is great enough for it to be worth taking the chance of returning.
Also, obviously, congrats on the award btw! Well deserved -- it was a great and fun (and not entirely lighthearted, W&H seduction with the Strawberries of Darkness from Wrecked/Two to Go recast and all) (I can't believe I didn't comment on it at the time -- where was I anyway?).
ETA: Since you said "if you ever have the time" to norwie, if you ever get the chance yourself do feel free to check out the Willow s6 filtered post a while back. I feel like at some point I am going to rejigger it enough to see the light of unflocked day, but I'd love to hear your take on it. Of course -- I see you're also planning a s7 post, so, take your time, obviously.
ETA2: I had forgotten parts of your story: "Then she felt it; there was something underneath the thin coat of paint on the wall - scrawls, doodles, figures, formulas, all in a mad chaotic blackeyed screaming let-me-out-of-hell mess that felt way too close to Things One Must Keep Under Control At All Times. She yanked her hand back as if the wall had burned her. "Yikes."" Wow. Right. Yes. Good.
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Date: 2012-10-20 10:05 pm (UTC)Here's a thought: Giles' and Willow's central internal conflicts over the series are very similar. They're both characters who think they know a great deal, who amass knowledge through studies, and end up having to learn how to unlearn and figure out instead. Their brains are full of a prioris that Must Not Be Challenged, unlike Buffy who tends to look at things fresh and then decide how she feels about them ("Note to self: religion freaky."). Giles and Willow deal with this in different ways - Giles more gradually and less drastically, but also far less in general; he never has his entire belief system shaken to its core the way Willow does several times.
There was a recent discussion on Buffyforums wherein norwie stated that he felt that Tara was intended as a kind of an earth-mother self-sacrificing forgiveness archetype, but I think that actually goes against the Tara in the show
I'd say there's something to it, except that I'm not sure the earth mother archetype is necessarily completely self-sacrificing to the point of allowing anything. Hell, going by Buffy alone, even Joyce got to hit Spike over the head and call Buffy on her antics once or twice (then again, I've seen fans hate on her and call her "the least supportive mother ever" for not being a doormat, so hey.) Also, I'm not sure any of the Buffy characters can be made to fit perfectly in any one archetype.
Also, obviously, congrats on the award btw! Well deserved -- it was a great and fun (and not entirely lighthearted, W&H seduction with the Strawberries of Darkness from Wrecked/Two to Go recast and all) (I can't believe I didn't comment on it at the time -- where was I anyway?).
Thanks! And I agree, there's definitely some darkness in there. I tried to put in hints (under the fresh coat of paint, so to speak) that these were two women, Willow especially, who were very aware that they both have the capacity for true darkness and/or madness within them, which is no less important if they're both going to be working at W&H. (I put Knox in there just to hint that they'll still have to face the Illyria plotline.) And Willow essentially deciding that fuck it, she can't go through life limiting herself to situations where she'll never risk anything. This isn't overcoming darkness, it's deciding to play the odds.
And I will check out your stuff as well - sorry I haven't already. I didn't want to do it as long as you're on your sabbatical,though. :)
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Date: 2012-10-21 02:27 am (UTC)Ooh, I like that, and it also hints at the fundamental difference between the abstraction people and the living-in-the-world thing that Buffy does easily. Giles and Willow's abstractions are different -- computers don't have smell, after all -- but they both have Ideas about the world that are more fundamentally ingrained and that are easier to deal with, and live within, for them than it is for Buffy who is always really a part of her surroundings. Well, not always -- because she also cuts herself off from them; but even then she is living in a different kind of present reality.
This isn't always a good thing for Buffy -- because Buffy lives very much in the Now and lives in the world, she accepts certain baseline facts about the social order that are not based on Ideas but realities. So there is a mild Cordelia side to her and some popular girl entitlement, as well as some majorly trusting her instincts as a slayer in ways that usually steer her right but occasionally lead her into fight-hunt-down mode (e.g. against Faith). She also doesn't really HAVE to present arguments for moral truths that she knows exists, so that when she has to be put in the position of communicating the things she's internalized over the years, she often falls short (e.g. her speeches to the Potentials which can never really get to the central issue). Buffy can find herself focusing on the necessity of Making Pie while Giles and Willow yell at each other over moral concepts that they've already decided well before the current Chumach situation has sprung up. But meanwhile, that means that Buffy never loses herself the way Willow does and Giles did in the past. She can never disconnect from her reality that strongly: she can only actually go far off course if something messes with her instincts as a person and a slayer, like Ted being a robot or Faith threatening her lover, or her having a vampire lover, or the Trio messing with her internals with demon poison putting her in a mental hospital. She is never so far away from where she actually is; emotionally she can be cut off, but intellectually I don't think she is that far away. She can't look Ben in the face and kill him when he's sitting there helpless. Willow and Giles can be intellectually miles from their reality, and can threaten to re-Key Dawn because energy is better than people or drug Buffy because Council Edict #1732. In a fundamental way, Buffy is Buffy, and while she changes over time, and makes big mistakes, she never...really flies out of orbit, the way Willow does and the way Giles flirts with.
I think Anya is another person who fits into this, though it's comical in the extreme with her: she seizes onto a few simple philosophies and then bases her identity around them (vengeance! communism! capitalism! marriage!) until she realizes that none of them, alone, actually work.
Apparently this alone got Really Long so another comment-reply forthcoming.
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Date: 2012-10-21 07:28 pm (UTC)She also doesn't really HAVE to present arguments for moral truths that she knows exists, so that when she has to be put in the position of communicating the things she's internalized over the years, she often falls short (e.g. her speeches to the Potentials which can never really get to the central issue).
Oh yes.
I'd love to see a Joyce defense post. Joyce is disadvantaged by the story that essentially makes her an antagonist for the first two seasons, culminating in "Becoming" and early s3 up to "Band Candy" - not because she's against Buffy, but because Buffy is forced to hide secrets from her, and because Joyce's priorities of taking care of her teenage daughter actively clash with said daughter's of saving the world.
when she lets Buffy pack her bags for her in "Graduation Day" (and how wonderful is it that Buffy tries the same thing with Dawn and Dawn, The Next Generation, won't stand for it <3)
*icon*
Dawn was always very much Joyce's daughter.
I also really like the subtlety with which you dispense with Kennedy as a romantic threat to Willow/Fred ("all slayered out").
Thanks! As a member of the People Who Don't Hate Kennedy Club, I always feel a bit iffy about writing post-"Chosen" fic pairing Willow with someone else. It's not necessarily that I think Willow/Kennedy are a forever kind of love, but with all the fics I've read where Kennedy is either completely dismissed or turned evil, I want to treat her fairly. In this particular case, I couldn't really get into what happened between them, but I'd like to think it was just... one of those things that don't work, and part of the reason Willow's still upset about it is that she carries some of the blame for that.
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Date: 2012-10-21 09:00 pm (UTC)I would love to see Dawn - Joyce comparisons; they do seem to have a similar function in Buffy's life, where obviously the age dynamic is reversed.
I like your stance on W/K -- and I think I buy that.
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Date: 2012-10-21 02:32 am (UTC)I do agree there is something to it and I didn't mean otherwise -- just that saying that doesn't quite get at some of the biggest moments for the character in the show. I do think Tara's Earth-Motheriness is definitely the baseline archetype (I mean, the name), and there are Willows-Grow-In-The-Earth associations (and plus, root jokes).
I have had an urge to write Joyce-defense post for a while. I think that she is one of the characters who is hurt most badly by the Buffy POV -- it's not Buffy the character's fault, because they really ARE evil, but the fact that Joyce gets kind of vilified for having resentments toward her daughter when she watches Buffy kill her one boyfriend (Ted) and her one friend (Pat) in front of her within a few months of each other makes me sad. (And in both cases, I think that it is Buffy-POV that contributes to the story being the way it is: the worst thing Joyce can do is have anyone in her life who undermines Buffy's primacy.) And while it's subtle, Joyce DOES have an arc, of sorts, that has her arrive at the Giles-place of accepting her daughter's status as an adult earlier than he does, basically when she lets Buffy pack her bags for her in "Graduation Day" (and how wonderful is it that Buffy tries the same thing with Dawn and Dawn, The Next Generation, won't stand for it <3), and then dealing with being the woman in the wall waiting in season four, accepting irrelevance by learning to play Mahjong and being ready in season five to have Buffy take care of her and her legacy. "Graduation Day" is probably about the Giles-in-"Tabula Rasa" point of her arc, I think, though they differ in a lot of major ways (obviously). It is interesting that Joyce's function as Buffy's mother, whom Buffy needs, more or less ends early in the series -- it's only in her absence that Buffy recognizes how much she needs her just to exist.
Thanks! And I agree, there's definitely some darkness in there. I tried to put in hints (under the fresh coat of paint, so to speak) that these were two women, Willow especially, who were very aware that they both have the capacity for true darkness and/or madness within them, which is no less important if they're both going to be working at W&H. (I put Knox in there just to hint that they'll still have to face the Illyria plotline.) And Willow essentially deciding that fuck it, she can't go through life limiting herself to situations where she'll never risk anything. This isn't overcoming darkness, it's deciding to play the odds.
Yes, I definitely got that. The imagery actually works really well, because after all what does Fred do if not try to paint over the crazy, but it's still there (like Book's hair), waiting. And that's not a bad thing; if you don't touch a little bit of the crazy or the strawberries, you're not alive. And it captures the essential thing about Willow's s7 story, which is that when you KNOW that you are capable of something horrible if your emotional balance is remotely messed up, you do everything you can not to jilt the equilibrium, even if it's an unpleasant one. I also really like the subtlety with which you dispense with Kennedy as a romantic threat to Willow/Fred ("all slayered out").
And I will check out your stuff as well - sorry I haven't already. I didn't want to do it as long as you're on your sabbatical,though. :)
Thanks :) Re: sabbatical, seeing your comment to norwie just made it seem like a good opportunity for a reminder ;). But you could still wait until I'm officially back, or any time really. I'm obviously not as committed to my hiatus as I should be. :)
Wings in Water
Date: 2012-10-20 02:40 pm (UTC)Re: Wings in Water
Date: 2012-10-20 10:06 pm (UTC)