Meta: Big Dawn Coming

[beer_good_foamy]

Growing up in public with your pants on

You know, I miss Dawn Summers.

I know I probably lost a couple of readers right there; Dawn isn’t everyone’s favourite character. But still, I really liked her; she’s bubbly, she’s a bit of a klutz, she’s smarter than people give her credit for, she’s a bit selfish but even at her normal size she’s got a heart as big as a whale. She grew into an extraordinary young woman on the show and it’s a pity that she hasn’t been seen in the comics.

OK, well, obviously she is in the comics – lately, she’s occupying roughly half of Scotland and smashing up castles with her fist. Granted, that was fun at first. But the joke has been told, it’s time to move on and the simple matter is this:

I don’t care why Dawn is a giant. Really. I'll happily joke about her being a giant, it's certainly food for crackfic, but I well and truly don’t give a shit why. I just want her to stop being a silly giant. Nao plz.

Let me try to explain why, because it may sound a bit weird considering that some of my gripes with the comics (the impossibility of Warren aside) have been the lack of explanation for the character development that seems to have taken place between “Chosen” and “The Long Way Home”. But my problem with that isn't that I don't want characters to develop – I'm just enough of a perv to want to watch them doing it, especially since (assuming that this is still a character-driven rather than plot-driven series) the motivations of the characters are of the utmost importance.

Dawn growing to 20 times her size, however, is not character development, merely character magnification. One or two lines aside (“Like a mom to me”? And why the hell wouldn’t she have strength proportional to her size?) I have no huge problem with s8’s characterization of Dawn, at least the little bits of it we get to see; as reasons to mope and feel sorry about oneself go, being 100 feet tall and trapped in Scotland is a pretty good one. And I suppose we’ll eventually find out why Joss wants her to be a giant – ie why it’s important to the story he wants to tell.

But it’s the constant teasing within the story of WHY she’s a giant that really annoys me – as if we're expected to sit around waiting excitedly for some big revelation concerning a subplot that has now gone on for almost a year with no hint of advancement. Because if we’re not given a good reason (or even a hint that one is forthcoming) for why one of the major characters has been turned into a one-joke angst machine, it’s hard to think of her as a major character no matter what her size is.

It's especially annoying since the problem with Dawn goes back a long way, but looked to be fixed. It's the age thing; when Dawn was introduced in s5 she was 14, often written even younger, and the rest of the cast were in their early 20s or older. The show had moved on from childish things and there was no point to repeating the s1-s2 storylines (first love, school is evil, yada yada) just for Dawn's sake. Hence, most of her on-screen interaction in s5 and especially s6 was with her extended family, and all the things the scoobies themselves had gone through at the same age for the most part either took place off-screen or didn't happen at all. We got to see her have friends and even a love interest now and then, but... whenever Buffy or Xander or Willow interact with someone new (whether it be a love interest, a friend, or a boss) it brings that character into the story. Whenever Dawn interacted with someone new, however, it tended to take Dawn out of the story since there was no room for her friends and her interests in BtVS (except for briefly in “All the Way”, “Lessons” and “Him”, neither of which really led anywhere continuity-wise).

DAWN: I'm sleeping over at Janice's.

In other words, Dawn was doomed to be a bit out of phase with the story and we only ever got to see certain sides of her. But as she grew up, she did indeed come to carve out a niche of her own. By s7, Dawn had found a role which she herself – being a bit of a geek – characterized as "Watcher Jr", including the slightly stiff relationship with the younger Slayers. I absolutely love s7 Dawn; she's smart, she's brave, she's... still pretty klutzy, but she's in there. And you’d think that after that, being officially an adult by 2004, she’d be allowed to become a fully-fledged member of the gang; to continue the contributions she did in s7, have arcs of her own, continue growing as a character rather than just as a seismological phenomenon.

So what happens in season 8? For undisclosed reasons, she gets turned into a giant, and once again she's just a case to be solved. Every discussion about her inevitably centres around her size. Every discussion with her includes visual jokes about how people have trouble even talking to her because of her size, let alone interact with her in any normal way (well, unless you want to believe some theories, haha). Forget the last three seasons; now she's just a giant, end of story.

BUFFY: Yeah, I'm also a person. You can't just define me by my Slayer-ness. That's ... something-ism.

Compared to what Joss did with Dawn at the start of season 5 there is, IMO, one important difference. By introducing Dawn the way he did, he made her part of the story right away and forced both the fans and the characters to deal with her existence. There was a very strong feeling of “what the hell is going on here?” running through every scene she was in, which were quite a few since her status as Buffy's kid sister who had to be protected meant that she turned up everywhere, yet we didn't know who or what she really was. Plus, as with most character introductions in early s5, it came with a big dose of character depth. In season 8, I don’t see that; I see a reduction of character depth which is hopefully temporary, and she's once again written out of the normal story (literally, since she doesn't actually fit indoors), as if she were still 14 and didn’t have anything to contribute apart from needing help. (And OK, the occasional witch-stompin'.)

There’s an irony here, which relates to the very nature of storytelling. In order to care why and how things happen to a character, we have to care about the character. That’s what makes them more than just plot devices. And by taking the girl who loved math, the girl who handed the weapon to Amanda, the girl who bragged about stealing lipstick, the girl who sat watch over Tara for hours, the girl who stood up to Spike without blinking, the girl who couldn’t cheerlead to save her life, the girl who refused to leave her dead mother to a poltergeist or say goodbye to her sister before the big battle... and turning her into the case of the week year, whose only function is to get us to wonder “Why the hell is Dawn a giant?”, Joss is making me not care about the character anymore – including, of course, why she’s a giant.

Now, whatever the canonical status of the comics, I’m not going to forget that I used to like Dawn a lot. But my point, which you can generalise as you see fit, is that the love I have for the TV character is not something that's automatically transferred to the comic book character (the same can be said about the TV characters from episode to episode and season to season, though that came easier thanks to the visual continuity and, well, just general continuity). Each character has to keep earning that love, and by reintroducing her after several years, looking completely different, having already gone through something unknown that's changed her radically, I don't have the same attachment to the character anymore. Part of the reason I still cared when Willow went overboard in s6 was because I'd seen how she got there, the good and bad choices every step of the way. Same for Faith in s3/s4, Angel/Buffy in s2, Spike in s5/s6, Wesley throughout Angel... same for every major character arc in the 'verse. Remove the how of a character's development and the question why becomes moot; all you're left with is is a giant peeking in on the story from the outisde through the castle windows – what we might call an "out of" character. ;-)

ALYSON HANNIGAN: She’s a giant. I don’t know what’s going on. I have no idea who that is or where he’s going, but awesome!

In short, I would like to see Dawn de-gigantofied and actually take part in the story again ASAP. She’s already been the helpless maiden in distress once; that was six years ago. Whaddyasay we have her grow up again? THAT would be awesome. Ish.



I promise my next meta will be less negative.

Comments

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Which was me

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

On the one hand I disagree that we learnt much about Dawn’s character in the first four episodes between her introduction and the reveal about her origins.

I never said that we learnt much about her background, but we did learn a lot about who she was as a person - though, granted, "irritating younger sister with a penchant for getting into trouble and cereal free gifts" pretty much sums up a lot about not-under-pressure young Dawn.

I never said puns, but... Dawn being jealous of Buffy is hardly new; that was half her arc in s7.

Since then she’s only had one scene but one that lets slip she’s not been spending her whole time in Scotland with Buffy but for part of it at least has been studying on some campus where she met Kenny.

In other words, the same thing she said in #1.

If it wasn’t Kenny then what has Dawn been up to and I’m still interested in who Kenny is and the fact that everyone but Dawn is suddenly au fait with thricewise knowledge.

Then I'm happy for you. I, as previously stated, can't be bothered to care what happened with an unseen character off-screen. It's a bit like speculating on exactly what Buffy and the Immortal had for dinner on their first date. And if the not-shown Kenny is not actually the reason, but something else we haven't seen either... same thing. I want to see characters do stuff, not see them deny having done stuff I never knew about in the first place. To take one example; the similar storyline in "Surprise"/"Innocence" worked so well because we'd been following Buffy and Angel for over a year, we knew exactly what they meant to each other, and the cruelty of the situation hit all the more harder for it. If the series had started two episodes later and we'd been told that Buffy slept with a vampire and he went evil, it wouldn't have been nearly the same thing - especially if we never even got to see Angel/Angelus on screen. Metaphors only work if you actually show them.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

But she's not jealous of Buffy, she's jealous of Buffy's attention and sisterhood. In S7 Buffy thought the potentials were a burden they weren't competition for Dawn. And in #1 she didn't say she met Kenny on campus, I assumed then that he was a local boy, local to the castle that is as both Buffy and Leah had met him.

As I recall people were quite interested in the Immortal, if not at the what he had for breakfast level. He certainly turned up in a lot of fics. I don't do fic but I'm curious about this character everyone keeps talking about, partly for Dawn's sake and partly because he's symptomatic of all the fairytale elements that have crept into the show. I'm interested in whether he's a red herring or a significant player being hidden in plain sight. It's a mild interest comensurate with the prominence being given to Dawn's story but I rather like that there's a mixture of big and little mysterys, it gives the whole story texture.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

But she's not jealous of Buffy, she's jealous of Buffy's attention and sisterhood. In S7 Buffy thought the potentials were a burden they weren't competition for Dawn.

In s7, Dawn was jealous of all the attention Buffy was giving to the potentials and wishing for something to do herself. ("But you're all special. Most people in this world have no idea why they're here or what they want to do. You do. You have a mission, a reason for being here. You're not here by chance. You're here because you are the chosen ones. Dawn, you better hurry up and eat something so you're not late for school.") In s8, she still is ("Buffy and all her improved new Slayer sisters.") Does that have anything to do with her gigantism? I don't know, since nobody actually DOES anything about it. Buffy and Xander discussed it briefly (maybe) and then dropped the subject and Dawn goes back to moping.

And in #1 she didn't say she met Kenny on campus

I sort of took it for granted. Though again, didn't much care about a character we don't get to see, don't get to know anything about, and who's described with a word that doesn't make sense.

As I recall people were quite interested in the Immortal

I wasn't. I thought it was clear from the outset that he was supposed to be an unseen character, only "existing" to have an excuse for Angel and Spike to whine and complain. Show him on screen or give him an actual personality and he won't be the same thing. The entire POINT is that he never shows up.

I'm interested in whether he's a red herring or a significant player being hidden in plain sight.

"In plain sight" usually involves being seen, no?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

In s7, Dawn was jealous of all the attention Buffy was giving to the potentials and wishing for something to do herself
For one episode. Before that she had issues with Buffy hiding Spike from her and stealing her 'boyfriend,' after that she had her own research gig with validation from Xander and it rapidly became clear that Buffy/Potentials was over. The balance has shifted.

"In plain sight" usually involves being seen, no?
I can see him with my brain :-)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

For one episode.

I'd say it was a bit more than that - not just her jealousy towards the potentials, but her not having a place in Buffy's life, not being a priority when the big Slayer-y things came along. (The never-repeated training from "Lessons", or Buffy not caring that she got hurt in "Lies My Parents Told Me", for instance.) But I agree: she got over it. So why would she be back to that same complaint again?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

On the one hand I don't think she got over it so much as the problem went away when Buffy gave up on bonding with the SiTs. On the other I think her issues with Buffy (and she's only whiny with her, seems pretty relaxed with Willow and Xander) are subtly different. It's not that she wants to be part of Buffy's life but that she's starting to have her own and wants Buffy to be interested. More like Willow in DMP having all that scary life stuff she was going through and no-one to talk to or at least not the person that she wanted to to listen.

[elisi]

But she's not jealous of Buffy, she's jealous of Buffy's attention and sisterhood. In S7 Buffy thought the potentials were a burden they weren't competition for Dawn.
Oh they *so* were. In 'Lessons' Buffy was teaching Dawn how to slay, and they were getting along very well - actually talking and interacting and having a much more mature relationship. Then the Potentials turn up (if you want to talk metaphors, Buffy adopted a bunch of new kids, who were all destined to follow in Buffy's footsteps, where Dawn was always going to take a different path). Remember this:

Buffy: Most people in this world have no idea why they're here or what they want to do. You do. You have a mission, a reason for being here. You're not here by chance. You're here because you are the chosen ones. (turns, walks upstairs, commenting on the way) Dawn, you better hurry up and eat something so you're not late for school.

How's that different from: "One Slayer is formidable. Two are formidabler. Or... three? Megaformidable.[...] (to Dawn) You don't have to be in Scotland. You have to be at Berkely."

(Just realised beer_good_foamy said this already. *facepalm*)

As far as I can see, Dawn is a giant because Joss thought it'd be fun, and it's a way of keeping her in Scotland, so she's with the rest of the cast.

And re. The Immortal, then the fascination is that he can be anything you want - I've read stories where he's chillingly scary, and others where he's fascinatingly grey (also he's the biggest Spike/Angel metaphor ever. It's funny). All we know about Kenny is that he was nice to Dawn and that he's a thricewise (whatever that is). That does not make for interesting fic. If he becomes fic-able, that'd be something else. But I'm not holding my breath.

ETA: Sorry about being so negative. I get what you're saying, I think the problem is that it has (so far at least) been all telling and no showing.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Just realised beer_good_foamy said this already. *facepalm*

And as I said to him that conflict lasted exactly one episode, when the potentials first turned up Dawn pitied them and after Potential Buffy was hiding in the basement to get away from them before including them in the everybody sucks but me category.

All we know about Kenny is that he was nice to Dawn and that he's a thricewise (whatever that is).

Exactly. So he can be anything you want.


I think the problem is that it has (so far at least) been all telling and no showing.

But they haven't told you anything or that was the substance of the original complaint. They've hinted and left you to infer and I like that in a story. One of my problems with AtF is the TMI about how Angel and the dragon met. If they'd just left it at showing them together I'd have been intrigued but being told they figured out they were on the same side in the middle of a fight just makes it sound as if much signalling with eyes was involved ( and not of the rolling kind).

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Exactly. So he can be anything you want.

If that qualified as great storytelling, then every story ever told would look like this:

"Something happens to a person. As a result, that person feels an emotion and does something. The End, fill in the blanks any way you want."

I'm not saying all stories should reveal everything right away. But there has to be SOMETHING there to work with, some hint of what's happening. Kenny is a huge nothing which I can't be bothered to make up a backstory for, since I know that that backstory will be 100.0% my own invention (not even fanfic but original fiction) and I'm not paying Joss to do his work for him. Again, why should I care about a character about whom I know nothing?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

If that qualified as great storytelling, then every story ever told would look like this...

I'm not a stroyteller, I was just going word-for word on elisi's description of why the Immortal was such a good subject :-)

Clearly people vary on how much they need to spelled out for them or long they're prepared to wait for the payoff on any given character. Dawn's story has been put on a back-burner while they tell a story that's all about Faith and having the ~second episode devoted to someone not Buffy (and not even in the same town) is different from how things used to work on TV but it's working for me. The Faith story is sufficiently powerful that I'm distracted from needing to know what's happened to Dawn and it's also doing a good job of telling me about Buffy by showing me people who aren't her. Like a harmony or a counterpoint or some other musical term I don't fully understand.

[elisi]

I'm not a stroyteller, I was just going word-for word on elisi's description of why the Immortal was such a good subject :-)
Ah, but we know a lot about the Immortal. We just don't know if he's good or evil. That's very different to a guy whose talent is to sleep with people and turn them into giants.

Why can't I spell? Woe!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe I'm just spoiled by reading books and watching TV series (Buffy, for instance) that managed to juggle both A and B plots simultaneously. ;-)

[elisi]

And as I said to him that conflict lasted exactly one episode
And at the end of the episode she seemed to be given the help she needed to deal with the problem (go Xander!). Having it repeated 2 years later is a bit... repetitive?

Exactly. So he can be anything you want.
No he can't. I can make up any back-ground story I like, but at some point (hopefully) Joss will let on who this guy really is.

One of my problems with AtF is the TMI about how Angel and the dragon met.
Seriously? I thought that was excellent story-telling. In *one* (!) panel we had an OC introduced and explained, leaving us free to focus on the rest of the story. We know that the dragon is sentient and willingly chose Angel's side - if we hadn't been told that, anything could be possible - did he tame it? Enslave it or use a thrall? Was it a surprise present from Cordy? Is it even the same dragon? Will it suddenly turn on him? How long has he had it? Those questions would impinge on the story that the writer is trying to tell, and we don't need them. The dragon is a bit-player, and we don't need any more mysteries - there's plenty there already. And as for the eye-signalling (*g*), then we will probably find out exactly what happened in the one-shot.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

At the end of the episode Xander told her how he coped with the problem. That's Xander dealing not Dawn, just as Angel giving Faith advice isn't the same as Faith taking it on board. And you're beginning to sound like those people who think one epiphany should have made Buffy all better in S6.

In *one* (!) panel we had an OC introduced and explained, leaving us free to focus on the rest of the story.

It had exactly the opposite effect on me because while I'd be happy to wait for the dragon thing to play out, the idea of it actually being a nice (but dim) dragon is a) lame and b) and convincing Angel of this in the middle of a fight (and vice versa) sounded so physically impossible that I stopped thinking about the story completely while trying to figure that out. I also think the questionof how trustworthy the dragon is extremely relevant to Angel. Metaphorically the dragon is Angelus, power, ambition all the things Angel accepted about himself in order to take down the Black Thorn. It's also red and has a neck shaped like a penis.

[elisi]

And you're beginning to sound like those people who think one epiphany should have made Buffy all better in S6.
Heh. I just think that 1 1/2 years should be enough to get over something - didn't take *Buffy* that long to cope with being pulled out of heaven. And I want to see something *new*!

the idea of it actually being a nice (but dim) dragon is a) lame
Why do you think it's dim? And who says it's 'nice'? Would you call Angel nice?

convincing Angel of this in the middle of a fight (and vice versa) sounded so physically impossible that I stopped thinking about the story completely while trying to figure that out.
This is where it just made me laugh, because someone on whedonesque came up with a *hilarious* take on that quite a while ago - before the preview pages came out (if I had the time, I'd go find it). Anyway, as I said this will probably be explained in the one-shot, so I'm not worrying about it for now.

It's also red and has a neck shaped like a penis.
Um... it's green. And of course it's a giant penis extension (that's why it's funny!). I'll bet anything you like that Spike will *hate* it!

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

The thing with Buffy's multiple epiphanies was that each one changed things a little for her requiring a new and slightly different insight to overcome. Same with Dawn. She got over not being a Slayer by trying to be a Watcher and now she can't even turn the pages of her normal-sized books. I suspect Watchering and (american) school created new problems as I said to our good host above.

Anyway, as I said this will probably be explained in the one-shot, so I'm not worrying about it for now.

Exactly my attitude to issue 11 re Dawn's issues. Also the dragon is dim for bumbling onto the wrong side until Angel corrected him and nice for letting Angel take charge.

[elisi]

I suspect Watchering and (american) school created new problems as I said to our good host above.
Oh that might be very true. But it's suggested that she grew (or is choosing to stay big) because she wants Buffy's attention. Aaaaaaaanyway, hopefully we'll soon find out.

Exactly my attitude to issue 11 re Dawn's issues.
Well the dragon is very useful/necessary - I don't think Angel would have even the slightest chance of fighting anything just on his own.

Also the dragon is dim for bumbling onto the wrong side until Angel corrected him and nice for letting Angel take charge.
As far as I understood it was a W&H employee (or similar), like Angel, and decided to switch sides. And as for Angel being in charge, then I've clearly read too much Anne McCaffrey, because it seems perfectly natural to me.

ETA: I found it!!! *dances* The comment I mentioned earlier - it's the 6th one down (and the first long one). See? It all makes *perfect* sense! :)

[elisi]

Exactly my attitude to issue 11 re Dawn's issues.
Actually - having reflected a little - that's not my attitude. Basically I think that Angel having a dragon is one of the most awesome things *ever*! I couldn't care less how he got it; the dragon in and of itself is brilliant and fills me with untold glee and happiness. And if we never find out exactly what happened that first night, it'll not bother me at all.

(This is something that goes for my fannish attitude in general - if I really love something, like f.ex. the S3 finale of Dr Who, then I couldn't care less if the how and why and logic don't really add up. As long as the metaphors and themes and layers and squee are there, that's all I need.)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Will you still be saying that the dragon is awesome five issues later when its had no more development than the Viper got and remains just a flying dick joke? Because that's all it is to me whereas giant Dawn still makes me smile just to look at her with the little humans buzzing around her. She's larger than life just as Buffy is now and pays the price of fame. Trapped in her signature outfit unable to go into a supermarket or a library without a gaggle of helpers to turn pages, always looming large in other people's conversations but not for herself for what she appears to be. She's the living embodiment of "be careful what you wish for," both Buffy's sister and her shadow and I'd love to hear her eventual confession to Xander but not more than I want to hear what Buffy and Willow have to say to each other or what's to become of Faith.

[elisi]

giant Dawn still makes me smile just to look at her with the little humans buzzing around her.
Clearly you and Joss share a brain. :) I'm glad you like her, really I am, and I wish I could too.

Will you still be saying that the dragon is awesome five issues later when its had no more development than the Viper got and remains just a flying dick joke?
Probably. The thing is, it doesn't *need* to be anything else - it's Angel's muscle & transport, and also zomg cool and funny. If they flesh out the character - great! If not, well that's fine too. It's... oh it's like the Scythe. The problem with Dawn is that we have 3 season's worth of character development to take into account, and she just doesn't come across very well to me. I want her to be interesting, not just her size. I want the Dawn who sang a song to her anchovy pizza! :)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

You mean like the Dawn who's victory dance made castles tremble. I do get the impression nobody *wants* her to be anything but her size, but how she copes with that is one form of character development and her on-campus experiences are another. Dawn's never been the object of desire before unless you count the bloodlust in All the Wayand that vamp really was a one bite stand, she never defended his memory as she has Kenny.

[elisi]

Well I just hope the reveal will be worth the wait.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Exactly. So he can be anything you want.

By the way, I might just take you up on this... *grins evilly and pours caffeine into crackfic muse*

[elisi]

Ooooh that's a brilliant idea! It could even be a game/fic-a-thon - 'Who is Kenny?' Most inventive fic gets a prize of a gazillion virtual chocolate biscuits! :)

(I, however, have to attempt to turn my house into a place that looks as though it is not inhabited by tramps. *grumbles*)

(But *if* I wrote about him, I'd make him the Immortal in a glamour, trolling campuses for naive first-years! That would explain why she's still so smitten!)