Buffy talks about the Giant Dawn thing

[beer_good_foamy]

One of the things that have been nagging me about the Kafka!Dawn storyline is that, well, I just don't see how it could ever happen. Not the being cursed bit, but how it could progress to the point where it's at in #1 and continues to be at, unchanged, in #20 when there seems to be a very obvious solution staring everyone in the face. I actually tried to write serious Season 8 fic about Buffy and Dawn, and as with all fic, my approach was pretty simple: start out with a basic premise and then ask myself "What would character X do?" In this case, the character was Buffy. And the Buffy in my head, the one I write in fic, the one I'd like to think is at least loosely based on how she was presented in canon, refused to play along with the plot.

Since the subject keeps coming up, just for kicks, I thought I'd write down the conversation I kept having with her whenever I tried to make her follow the Season 8 story. (Check the tag for previous character interviews.)

Opening credits: "Mystery" by Hugh Laurie

BEER GOOD: So, right, Buffy, welcome back to the show.

BUFFY SUMMERS: Thanks. *glances at watch* Can we make this quick?

BG: Sure, we'll get right to the subject at hand. Your sister has been turned into a giant and later a centaur, and you suspect her boyfriend Kenny, a thricewise, had something to do with it. Now you're stuck with a miserable giant hanging around the house all the time. How do you deal with this? A) blame Dawn, B) brood on your balcony, C) ignore -

BS: I'm thinking a quick trip to Berkley.

BG: *frowns* Wait, that's not one of the options I have here.

BS: You know, "Ding dong. Hi, Kenny. Look, you know who I am and what I can do, and I really don't have time for teenage melodrama right now, so what do you say you break the curse you put on my sister and maybe that's all that gets broken tonight?"

BG: Um... *checks comics* That's not what you've done, though. So far, at least.

BS: It isn't? Why not?

BG: I don't know, I'm not... Wonder Woman! Point is... well, I guess "why not" is the point.

BS: Beats me. Does Dawn like being a giant centaur?

BG: Apparently, she hates it.

BS: Do I like her being a giant centaur?

BG: Apart from the jokes, no. You're mostly annoyed by it.

BS: "Annoyed"? My sister gets cursed and turned into a monster, and I'm just annoyed?

BG: Yeah.

BS: Whatever. Is it wearing off?

BG: Not as far as you know. And Willow can't seem to fix it either.

BS: So if I know who's behind it, why wouldn't I do something about it? That's just silly.

BG: I dunno... what if you're wrong? Maybe Kenny had nothing to do with it?

BS: *checks comics, frowns* Nope, says here I still think it's his fault. Huh. That would mean I haven't even talked to him, which makes zero sense. She slept with this guy?

BG: Actually, no.

BS: Then yay Dawn for at least being smart enough not to sleep with an abusive psycho who uses magic to get back at women who don't do what he wants. He's what we in the business call "the bad guy," and I gotta say – urge to beat him up? Not fading. I'm pretty sure there were a couple of episodes where I dealt with exactly that sort of stuff back in can-

BG: Ssssh. We don't use the "C" word.

BS: Sorry. So why am I not beating him up again?

BG: Maybe you can't find him?

BS: *checks comics* Says nothing here about him being missing or us looking for him. And anyway, Willow can find just about anything. Oh, did I tell you that she found Mr Gordo? And he was supposed to be at the bottom of the Sunnydale crater, but -

BG: Back on topic, maybe you couldn't get to California?

BS: Hey look, I have a castle. I have jets and helicopters. I'm pretty much stinking rich.

BG: I noticed.

BS: Hey! That's just... uh... do you know how hard it is to get sweat out of Kevlar? I dropped by my Rome double's apartment ONCE, and apparently her place still smells like me...

BG: I'm sure it does. Nudge nudge. Know what I mean. Say no more.

BS: *rolls eyes* Fanboys. Anyway, I've got money, I've got shiny shiny planes, and I'm best friends with a witch who can... *checks comics* ...fly? Cool. So if I want to get to California for a few hours, trust me, I don't have to fly coach.

BG: But still... maybe you were busy saving the world from some demon just then?

BS: Just when? Just every single day in all the months I've had a giant centaur moping around the castle? I haven't had 24 hours to spare to help my own sister?

BG: Uh... yes?

BS: You have got to be kidding. I thought I was in charge here?

BG: ...Let's talk hypothetically?

BS: OK, fine... Well, in that case I guess I'd send a squad of Slayers to Kenny's place and have them beat him up until he reverses the spell.

BG: D'oh!

BS: That's not in the comics either, huh?

BG: No. But maybe you don't have any Slayers available to -

BS: Seriously, if there's one place in the world I don't have a Slayer shortage, it's California. You should see the transfer applications. I keep telling them about hellmouths and earthquakes and entire cities getting sent to Hell, and all they seem to hear is "Bla bla beaches bla bla sun bla bla moviestars." I'm stuck here in Scotland, but...

BG: Yeah, why is that?

BS: I... *checks comics* uh... I don't know. But point is, he's a thricewise, and... what is that, by the way?

BG: No idea whatsoever.

BS: Huh. Well anyway, if he's putting curses on teenage girls, I'm pretty sure he falls under my jurisdiction. Besides, it's not like I'd kill him or anything. Oooh, remember that time I beat Ethan Rayne up? And that time I beat Warren up? And that time I beat up that jerk from the swim team? And that other time I beat Ethan Rayne up? And that time I beat Tucker Wells up? And that time I beat up the whole Trio? And that third time I -

BG: Wait a second, we're dealing with sensitive matters of magic abuse, first relationships, heartbreak, emotions, gender relations, and all that messy stuff. You're saying that your solution to this highly complex issue would be... violence?

BS: Hi, I'm Buffy, have we met?

BG: But Dawn's an adult now. Surely she needs to deal with her own problems without her sister acting like some sort of... control freak and telling her how to live her life?

BS: Buf-fy. Slayer, comma, the.

BG: Right. Well, then I guess I'm stumped. Unless... well... *cringes*

BS: Unless what?

BG: Well, there's this line here...

DAWN: … because you act like it’s my fault.

BUFFY: You were dating a thricewise.

BG: ...Which, um, I'm not saying it is, but it sounds a tiny little bit like you're thinking she had this coming for dating a thricewise, that it's all her fault, and that you're not helping her because you think she... well, deserves it. Please don't hit me.

BS: *glares* "Deserves"?

BG: Yeah. I mean, in the show they used this sort of thing all the time as a metaphor for men exercising their power over women, spousal abuse, rape... Y'know, it's kind of like how you deserved what you got for sleeping with Angel, or the ballerina in "Waiting in the Wings" deserved what she got for cheating on her boss, or Katrina deserved what she got for dumping Warren, or...

BS: Hello? Not Cousin Beth here. I'm pretty sure that's exactly the sort of thing I was created to deal with.

BG: You're right, of course. Can't be that, then.

BS: Are we about done here? I'm kinda busy.

BG: Uh... sure. Those banks aren't going to rob themselves, eh?

BS: WHAT?!?

End credits: "Bad Boys Get Spanked" by The Pretenders

Comments

[digopheliadug.livejournal.com]

Jossome.

Seriously, that was amazing/amusing/very Buffy.

Buf-fy. Slayer, comma, the.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

It's official. You need to take over writing the comics. You get the characters better than Joss does.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Only if that means I get to do what Brian Lynch is doing with Angel and canonize every fanfic I've ever written. :-) Thanks!

[elisi]

In this case, the character was Buffy. And the Buffy in my head, the one I write in fic, the one I'd like to think is at least loosely based on how she was presented in canon, refused to play along with the plot.
Oh Lord, same here. Also - I LOVE THIS INTERVIEW!

(I' say something clever, except I think my brain's not working properly thanks to an excess of good food etc.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

And I put in at least two things here just for you. ;-) Thanks!

[snowpuppies]

Yeah. That's the real Buffy, alright.

*sigh*


I've missed her.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

*giggles and hands you nice warm chocolate chip cookies* (take it now, before I eat them all...)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

OW! (Sorry, forgot to put oven mitts on.) :-) Thanks!

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

Now that is the real, the genuine, the only Buf-fy. Slayer, comma, the.

Personally, from what I hear of the comics, the only possible explanation to Buffy not doing exactly as your interviewee would suggest is that the one in the Scottish castle is also an imposter...

Seems reasonable, as the real one is somewhere where you could interview her!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Well, this is TV!Buffy. Comic!Buffy is supposed to be Comic!Buffy, I think. It's all very confusing, but that's what you get when you have different stories with similar characters. Thanks!

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

LOL! I agree that Buffy would have taking action in the whole thing instead of getting busy with something else. I think the story would be more accurate if we've known Kenny's whereabouts. Is he dead? Did he disappear? What happened to him?

The key to the whole thing is Kenny. Where is he?

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I agree that Buffy would have taking action in the whole thing instead of getting busy with something else.

Not just "should have" - we're talking about the girl whose first reaction to anything going wrong is "beat it up until it goes away." I really don't see how this is different.

Where is he?

Presumably in Berkeley, since nobody has said anything to suggest he's not.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Funny, intelligent, and in-character.

But now you need to write Dawn's reaction to the idea of her sister threatening to beat up Kenny - who, in Dawn's mind, is entirely blameless because all this is her fault, and anyway it's none of Buffy's business, and she's an adult now and she can handle her own problems without Big Sis trying to butt in and control her life, thank you very much...

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I did actually try to write Dawn's side of this (one of my ideas was even to do it as an all-human AU, which would be a first for me). Problem is, I kept writing phrases like "I made him do it" and "he only beats me because he loves me so much" and believe it or not, I have a squick level... :-)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Your version of Buffy may be a nice enough girl in her vigilante way but she's really not that bright. Plus I don't know where she's got this poor little straw Dawnie thing from. Comics Dawn was miserable in the early issues but the way she cheered up once she'd confessed to Xander suggests it wasn't being a giant but feeling a giant skank that was her main problem. She was looking pretty comfotable in her giant skin by the very next issue. Next thing you know she was kicking ass in Tokyo before making the most of when that gets literalised with some of the smartest comeback lines she's ever had. Dawn's a grown woman, the last thing she needs is big sister playing the chivalrous thug on her behalf.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Of course, the central message of Buffy is "everyone for him/herself". Just like Giles did just fine in "A New Man", Joyce got out of her relationship with Ted on her own, and the last thing Buffy needed in "Gone" was for someone to point out where she was going. After all, being turned into a monster is never really a problem to be addressed at all. If it were, you'd have to come up with some sort of... I dunno, super-powered being to fight the supernatural. Let's call it a "Slayer" for simplicity's sake.

As for Dawn having cheered up, I refer you to #16.

[athenamuze.livejournal.com]

Yeah, again, I point to my little bit on the comic book writer's room. I love Joss, but the comics make it clear his supporting staff did their jobs well.

http://community.livejournal.com/muzingz/1014.html

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Still love that one. :-) Thanks!

[shadowscast.livejournal.com]

Yup, that sounds about right. Hee.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[deird1]

Brilliantly done!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

*takes a bow*

*quickly puts bow back again before the police arrive*

[goodbyebird]

Yup. Exactly. I didn't mind Dawn actually being a giant when this whole thing started. I thought it was funny, but the complete lack of anything being done to fix it just because Joss wanted to go Hulk smash! on Japan, well, that there's not very good storytelling.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree; I thought it was a hilarious gag at first. "Dawn lost her virginity and got turned into a giant," that was a great play on an old Jossverse cliché. But I assumed they would fix it, the way they used to do back in canon, and instead... they've just kept telling the joke over and over and over again, and for the last 15 issues or so, the only thing it's done is make me like the other characters less and less. But I'm guessing we're stuck with this for 20 more issues, and right now my only hope is that we're indeed supposed to see it as a bad thing that the others are completely ignoring her. Considering the way everyone's defending Buffy's right to not help her sister, though, I kinda doubt it.

[(Anonymous)]

Reading through this I can't help but be drawn back to this season 5 quote

"She's a robot! You guy's couldn't tell me from a robot?"

It’s always been odd why Buffy never tracked down Kenny and turned him into choice cuts of beef. I agree with what you said about Buffy preventing any evil from ruing a person’s way of life but I think a more interesting question is why she didn’t develop the rage every time someone messed with her family

What happened to the Buffy who threatened to kill anybody who came near Dawn during glory’s ritual or the Buffy who stood between Tara and her father? You brought up the moment during the first arc where Buffy mentioned that she and the others knew Kenny was a thricewise. I think the thing people are missing is that when Buffy was explaining this she knew BEFORE Dawn had changed. Is this the equivalent of a Mother turning to her husband and saying . . .

“Gosh, I’m not so sure about this Voorhees character Mary-Sue is spending her time with. Perhaps we need to have words with her.”

The whole ‘you brought it on yourself’ mentality never fit the character. There’s also the question about Berkeley. You brought up the idea that it was a safe school to be at but according to Google maps it’s roughly 377 miles from there to the heart of Los Angeles (That’s right, I actually did research, Take that any chance of a social life!). talking into account that surrounding suburbs were affected by Wolfram and Hart’s revenge and the fact that I’m pretty sure there isn’t gonna be a field of daisy’s where Los Angeles stood you can’t tell me the odd barrage of hell spawn didn’t travel in her direction.

~ Timan ~

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

What happened to the Buffy who threatened to kill anybody who came near Dawn during glory’s ritual or the Buffy who stood between Tara and her father?

Maybe she's a robot? :-)

“Gosh, I’m not so sure about this Voorhees character Mary-Sue is spending her time with. Perhaps we need to have words with her.”

Hee! But on the other hand, since we have absolutely no information on what a thricewise is, it's possible that they're not necessarily evil, any more than witches are. I'm not saying Buffy would be OK with Dawn dating Willow, but...

I’m pretty sure there isn’t gonna be a field of daisy’s where Los Angeles stood

Well, supposedly LA is right where it's always been as far as anyone outside AtF is concerned. But yeah, nowhere is completely safe in the Buffyverse - but you gotta think there'd be safer places than the frequently-attacked headquarters of a terrorist organisation at war with humanity.

[next_to_normal]

Made of win.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[xlivvielockex.livejournal.com]

Excellent as always, Foamy. You totally caputured Buffy and I'm still wondering why she hasn't gone after this guy or at least sent some of the dozens of Slayers she's got hanging around to do it. It just doesn't make any sense.

I know that you feel like a lot of Comics!Buffy's actions have been in character with what is going on but I still feel like this is not our Buffy. It wouldn't be that hard, in a land with fairies and leprechauns now, to use a spell to give a double all of Buffy's memories and then put her in a position where she could do real harm to the organization and to the Scoobies and even Buffy herself. It just keeps seeming more and more likely to me.

Or maybe it's simply because I don't want to believe that the Buffy from the shows would be so morally grey. I want to believe that Buffy would go kick some ass to save her sister, that she would still have Giles in her life, that she wouldn't go around robbing banks and killing her best friend.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I know that you feel like a lot of Comics!Buffy's actions have been in character

I wouldn't say a lot; I'd say I could see at least some of it happening if she had a very good reason to go this dark. There are some classic Buffy flaws at the centre of it all, but almost none of her virtues; as it is, she just looks hellbent on doing everything wrong no matter how obviously stupid it is.

That said, the idea of a new and improved Buffybot who's been programmed to think she's the real Buffy gets no complaints from me. :-)

[slayerkate.livejournal.com]

I have younger sisters, and I was the one taking care of them for a long time, even protecting them myself from other people, when it became necessary.

But they're all adults now, and the one of them has a baby with her ex-boyfriend - who is currently in jail, and will be in prison for murder because he is a real prizewinner. There's an urge to make him feel some pain, but even if he was released, I couldn't do it because my sister would stop speaking to me (and she calls him all sorts of things! You should hear her mouth.) Her reasoning would be, like Dawn's, that she is an adult and can take care of her own situation.
It doesn't change the fact that I want to make the guy hunt for his teeth, though.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry about your sister, and I can't claim the same personal experience. So since I don't know you or your sister, please don't take this as a comment on your situation.

But the goal isn't to hurt Kenny. The goal is to make him stop actively hurting Dawn, as he is if he's indeed the one who put the curse on her. Yes, Dawn would probably be mad as hell if that involved Buffy beating Kenny to a bloody pulp, just like... well, nobody much liked the suggestion that Jasmine was anything but the greatest thing ever, to take one example. But why won't anyone even talk to him? It's what they did in every similar situation in canon: investigate who's behind it, even if it meant occasionally suspecting and hurting the wrong person (Cassie's dad in "Help" springs to mind). But when it's Buffy's own sister, everyone just stands by and watches and laughs. I guess that's what really gets me. Buffy might have to grovel for Dawn's forgiveness afterwards, but at least there'll be a Dawn to forgive her; we have been given no reason to believe the curse is harmless. And it's not like Buffy doesn't have her own experience of abusive relationships.

Buffy never cared if someone was above or below 18 before doing what she's specifically designed to do. When Giles went after Angelus, Buffy didn't say "he's an adult, he knows what he's doing" (and Joyce didn't ask about Buffy's ID when she told Angel to leave town, either.) It's one thing to let people live their lives. It's another to stand by and do nothing when someone you love has exactly the sort of problem you've been helping random strangers with your entire adult life - often against their will.

And that's not even going into the whole metaphorical side of Buffy - that she was specifically designed to deal with real problems by beating up their metaphorical counterpart. And again, this is exactly what she's always done, going back at least to "I, Robot... You Jane". Why not now? Maybe it would have worked better if we'd been shown a good reason for why Dawn feels so strongly about Kenny; as it is, all we know about him is that he did this to his ex-girlfriend, which as far as I can tell makes him no different from most other similar cases on the show.

Again, it's hard to argue my comfy fictional viewpoint against your RL one, and I hope you don't take it like that... thankfully, I've never had reason to find out what I'd do if my little sister was in a relationship I really disapproved of. I'd like to think, though, that if I had good reason to believe someone was actually physically hurting her and she came to me for help, I'd do something other than blame her and complain about how hard it makes my life, as Buffy's currently doing.

[skipp-of-ark.livejournal.com]

The real problem here is two-fold.

1) You're expecting Joss to use continuity, established patterns of behavior, logic, etc. This is Joss we're talking about here, who even on the show was more than willing, on multiple occasions, to toss all that aside no matter what the damage to a characer would be if he got an idea into his head for a subplot, a plotline, or even just a joke that he thought was hilarious.

2) More importantly, you're expecting Joss to adhere to your idea of who Buffy is. Which reminds me of all the "My [insert Buffyverse character" memes done a few years ago, which IMO revealed far more about the people writing them than anything about the characters they were supposedly describing. (I remember several instances of "My Buffy..." who categorically didn't truly like, trust, or respect either Xander, Willow, Giles, or Angel. Or "My Xander..." who was practically a racist in thought when it came to demons and vampires, jealously possessive of or abusive to various female characters, or not-very-much in the closet about supposedely repressed gay desires for whoever the writer preferred to slash him with.) Point is, Joss isn't beholden to anybody's idea of who any of his characters are, except his own.

3) (Did I say twofold? Silly me.) Joss is continuing a trend he started on the show, in Season 6 or 7 IMO, where he categorically ignored previous characterization or behavior because he was dead set on certain things happening. Some people's reactiohs to Buffy/Satsu, for instance, closely mirrored my reaction to Buffy/Spike, as in, "Buffy would never, EVER, do that! Joss is just pandering to (fill-in-the-blank)!" One thing I darkly enjoy about the comics, is how many people who enjoyed Seasons 6 and 7 are now mirroring my own reactions to those seasons with their reactions to Season 8. (Schadenfreude, I know.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

1) I'm the first to admit that Joss occasionally took liberties for the sake of the plot or joke of the week; however, IMO the show never built entire season arcs on pretty much everyone acting this far removed from how they'd been portrayed earlier in canon.

2) Well, obviously, as I stated at the very start of this post. Who knows, maybe I completely misunderstood the entire series every single time I watched it. But I don't think it's just my idea that this is exactly the same sort of plot they used literally dozens of times on the show, and which was always approached in one way on the show... and now, for no stated reason, isn't.

3) Speaking as someone who thinks s6 is one of the best of the entire series (and who doesn't think Buffy/Satsu is by any means the weirdest thing to happen in Season 8) - you're welcome. ;-)

[misswitch.livejournal.com]

here through antennapedia and I just wanted to say:

Bwahahahahahaha!!!

This?

BG: Wait a second, we're dealing with sensitive matters of magic abuse, first relationships, heartbreak, emotions, gender relations, and all that messy stuff. You're saying that your solution to this highly complex issue would be... violence?

BS: Hi, I'm Buffy, have we met?

Best. line. ever.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I have to admit I'm kinda proud of that one. :-)

[emelye-miller.livejournal.com]

Lol. My thoughts exactly. Nothing anyone does in the comics makes the least bit of sense to me. FYI: I've been reading your stuff pretty regularly now so I thought I'd stop lurking and friend you. *friends*

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks - friended you back!

[riccadonna.livejournal.com]

Really, really nice: I love a well done Buffy!
Never read the comics but from what I hear they're crazier than some of the most extreme AU fanfictions.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks! The comics have their good points, but... "crazy" is definitely one word that fits.

Hi, I'm Buffy, have we met?

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Yep. My reaction to the comics too.

Re: Hi, I'm Buffy, have we met?

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

It happens. :-) Thanks for reading!

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

BG: Wait a second, we're dealing with sensitive matters of magic abuse, first relationships, heartbreak, emotions, gender relations, and all that messy stuff. You're saying that your solution to this highly complex issue would be... violence?
BS: Hi, I'm Buffy, have we met?

Awesome. I have been enjoying the comics a lot, far more than I should really because I do see [some of] the flaws, but this was just delightful.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot!

[snickfic]

Here on an old rec, and I must say, that is fabulous. Fabulous. That right there is the Buffy I know.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It was nice to revisit her for once. :-)