Buffy talks about the Giant Dawn thing

[beer_good_foamy]

One of the things that have been nagging me about the Kafka!Dawn storyline is that, well, I just don't see how it could ever happen. Not the being cursed bit, but how it could progress to the point where it's at in #1 and continues to be at, unchanged, in #20 when there seems to be a very obvious solution staring everyone in the face. I actually tried to write serious Season 8 fic about Buffy and Dawn, and as with all fic, my approach was pretty simple: start out with a basic premise and then ask myself "What would character X do?" In this case, the character was Buffy. And the Buffy in my head, the one I write in fic, the one I'd like to think is at least loosely based on how she was presented in canon, refused to play along with the plot.

Since the subject keeps coming up, just for kicks, I thought I'd write down the conversation I kept having with her whenever I tried to make her follow the Season 8 story. (Check the tag for previous character interviews.)

Opening credits: "Mystery" by Hugh Laurie

BEER GOOD: So, right, Buffy, welcome back to the show.

BUFFY SUMMERS: Thanks. *glances at watch* Can we make this quick?

BG: Sure, we'll get right to the subject at hand. Your sister has been turned into a giant and later a centaur, and you suspect her boyfriend Kenny, a thricewise, had something to do with it. Now you're stuck with a miserable giant hanging around the house all the time. How do you deal with this? A) blame Dawn, B) brood on your balcony, C) ignore -

BS: I'm thinking a quick trip to Berkley.

BG: *frowns* Wait, that's not one of the options I have here.

BS: You know, "Ding dong. Hi, Kenny. Look, you know who I am and what I can do, and I really don't have time for teenage melodrama right now, so what do you say you break the curse you put on my sister and maybe that's all that gets broken tonight?"

BG: Um... *checks comics* That's not what you've done, though. So far, at least.

BS: It isn't? Why not?

BG: I don't know, I'm not... Wonder Woman! Point is... well, I guess "why not" is the point.

BS: Beats me. Does Dawn like being a giant centaur?

BG: Apparently, she hates it.

BS: Do I like her being a giant centaur?

BG: Apart from the jokes, no. You're mostly annoyed by it.

BS: "Annoyed"? My sister gets cursed and turned into a monster, and I'm just annoyed?

BG: Yeah.

BS: Whatever. Is it wearing off?

BG: Not as far as you know. And Willow can't seem to fix it either.

BS: So if I know who's behind it, why wouldn't I do something about it? That's just silly.

BG: I dunno... what if you're wrong? Maybe Kenny had nothing to do with it?

BS: *checks comics, frowns* Nope, says here I still think it's his fault. Huh. That would mean I haven't even talked to him, which makes zero sense. She slept with this guy?

BG: Actually, no.

BS: Then yay Dawn for at least being smart enough not to sleep with an abusive psycho who uses magic to get back at women who don't do what he wants. He's what we in the business call "the bad guy," and I gotta say – urge to beat him up? Not fading. I'm pretty sure there were a couple of episodes where I dealt with exactly that sort of stuff back in can-

BG: Ssssh. We don't use the "C" word.

BS: Sorry. So why am I not beating him up again?

BG: Maybe you can't find him?

BS: *checks comics* Says nothing here about him being missing or us looking for him. And anyway, Willow can find just about anything. Oh, did I tell you that she found Mr Gordo? And he was supposed to be at the bottom of the Sunnydale crater, but -

BG: Back on topic, maybe you couldn't get to California?

BS: Hey look, I have a castle. I have jets and helicopters. I'm pretty much stinking rich.

BG: I noticed.

BS: Hey! That's just... uh... do you know how hard it is to get sweat out of Kevlar? I dropped by my Rome double's apartment ONCE, and apparently her place still smells like me...

BG: I'm sure it does. Nudge nudge. Know what I mean. Say no more.

BS: *rolls eyes* Fanboys. Anyway, I've got money, I've got shiny shiny planes, and I'm best friends with a witch who can... *checks comics* ...fly? Cool. So if I want to get to California for a few hours, trust me, I don't have to fly coach.

BG: But still... maybe you were busy saving the world from some demon just then?

BS: Just when? Just every single day in all the months I've had a giant centaur moping around the castle? I haven't had 24 hours to spare to help my own sister?

BG: Uh... yes?

BS: You have got to be kidding. I thought I was in charge here?

BG: ...Let's talk hypothetically?

BS: OK, fine... Well, in that case I guess I'd send a squad of Slayers to Kenny's place and have them beat him up until he reverses the spell.

BG: D'oh!

BS: That's not in the comics either, huh?

BG: No. But maybe you don't have any Slayers available to -

BS: Seriously, if there's one place in the world I don't have a Slayer shortage, it's California. You should see the transfer applications. I keep telling them about hellmouths and earthquakes and entire cities getting sent to Hell, and all they seem to hear is "Bla bla beaches bla bla sun bla bla moviestars." I'm stuck here in Scotland, but...

BG: Yeah, why is that?

BS: I... *checks comics* uh... I don't know. But point is, he's a thricewise, and... what is that, by the way?

BG: No idea whatsoever.

BS: Huh. Well anyway, if he's putting curses on teenage girls, I'm pretty sure he falls under my jurisdiction. Besides, it's not like I'd kill him or anything. Oooh, remember that time I beat Ethan Rayne up? And that time I beat Warren up? And that time I beat up that jerk from the swim team? And that other time I beat Ethan Rayne up? And that time I beat Tucker Wells up? And that time I beat up the whole Trio? And that third time I -

BG: Wait a second, we're dealing with sensitive matters of magic abuse, first relationships, heartbreak, emotions, gender relations, and all that messy stuff. You're saying that your solution to this highly complex issue would be... violence?

BS: Hi, I'm Buffy, have we met?

BG: But Dawn's an adult now. Surely she needs to deal with her own problems without her sister acting like some sort of... control freak and telling her how to live her life?

BS: Buf-fy. Slayer, comma, the.

BG: Right. Well, then I guess I'm stumped. Unless... well... *cringes*

BS: Unless what?

BG: Well, there's this line here...

DAWN: … because you act like it’s my fault.

BUFFY: You were dating a thricewise.

BG: ...Which, um, I'm not saying it is, but it sounds a tiny little bit like you're thinking she had this coming for dating a thricewise, that it's all her fault, and that you're not helping her because you think she... well, deserves it. Please don't hit me.

BS: *glares* "Deserves"?

BG: Yeah. I mean, in the show they used this sort of thing all the time as a metaphor for men exercising their power over women, spousal abuse, rape... Y'know, it's kind of like how you deserved what you got for sleeping with Angel, or the ballerina in "Waiting in the Wings" deserved what she got for cheating on her boss, or Katrina deserved what she got for dumping Warren, or...

BS: Hello? Not Cousin Beth here. I'm pretty sure that's exactly the sort of thing I was created to deal with.

BG: You're right, of course. Can't be that, then.

BS: Are we about done here? I'm kinda busy.

BG: Uh... sure. Those banks aren't going to rob themselves, eh?

BS: WHAT?!?

End credits: "Bad Boys Get Spanked" by The Pretenders

Comments

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Your version of Buffy may be a nice enough girl in her vigilante way but she's really not that bright. Plus I don't know where she's got this poor little straw Dawnie thing from. Comics Dawn was miserable in the early issues but the way she cheered up once she'd confessed to Xander suggests it wasn't being a giant but feeling a giant skank that was her main problem. She was looking pretty comfotable in her giant skin by the very next issue. Next thing you know she was kicking ass in Tokyo before making the most of when that gets literalised with some of the smartest comeback lines she's ever had. Dawn's a grown woman, the last thing she needs is big sister playing the chivalrous thug on her behalf.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Of course, the central message of Buffy is "everyone for him/herself". Just like Giles did just fine in "A New Man", Joyce got out of her relationship with Ted on her own, and the last thing Buffy needed in "Gone" was for someone to point out where she was going. After all, being turned into a monster is never really a problem to be addressed at all. If it were, you'd have to come up with some sort of... I dunno, super-powered being to fight the supernatural. Let's call it a "Slayer" for simplicity's sake.

As for Dawn having cheered up, I refer you to #16.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

And presumably the first thing your Buffy would have done in A New Manwould be to go slay Maggie Walsh. As it was she went after the monster who she assumed had killed Giles and nearly ended up killing Giles herself. When she realised the mistake Giles himself was around to assent to incarcerating Ethan.

Ted was terminated only after his intentions proved lethal and the blinvisibility cure only became a priority once Xander discovered that it was going to become a case of molecular blisintegration. Which brings me to my main point, if you look at what Buffy does carefully, she does fight the supernatural but things only get Slayey when the other side gets lethal. She was content to tolerate Anya as long as her wishes stayed whimsical, she let loan sharks operate and demon bars stay open and more recently allied with Dracula as long as he kept up the rubbing alcohol and cabbage leaf diet. Kenny's spell has been occasionally embarrassing for Dawn but far from killing her it's saved her life and allowed her to save Xander's (in#16). It's also permitted her to make several uniquely useful contributions to the mission and best of all kept her well away from Berkley and having to face Kenny.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

First of all, sorry for the snippy tone in my first response. It was a moment.

And presumably the first thing your Buffy would have done in A New Manwould be to go slay Maggie Walsh.

Why on earth would she do that? a) She had no reason to believe Maggie Walsh had anything to do with Giles disappearing, and b) Buffy doesn't slay humans. I specifically had her say above that she wasn't going to kill Kenny (the bastard!)

Ted was terminated only after his intentions proved lethal and the blinvisibility cure only became a priority once Xander discovered that it was going to become a case of molecular blisintegration.

You're saying that if Ted had stuck to Asimov's laws and Buffy's invisibility had turned out to not be life-threatening in and of itself, nobody would have raised an eyebrow? Nobody would ever have tried to fix things? Joyce would have married Ted and Buffy would have called him Dadbot and everyone would have lived happily ever after, except with Buffy staying invisible until she died of natural causes?

if you look at what Buffy does carefully, she does fight the supernatural but things only get Slayey when the other side gets lethal.

Lethal or makes the victim incapable of leading a normal human life, as Dawn currently is. And once again, I never suggested slaying Kenny. Why is going after the root of the problem "not so bright"? Isn't that exactly what comic!Buffy is so keen on doing in #18, for instance, rather than dealing with "symptoms"? The difference in this case, of course, being that no one has to die in the process.

Kenny's spell has been occasionally embarrassing for Dawn but far from killing her it's saved her life and allowed her to save Xander's (in#16).

Saved her life how? By Buffy's own reasoning, she shouldn't be there at all. She should be in Berkeley, not known as the most dangerous place on earth. If anything, this is putting her in harm's way. And if she has to spend the rest of her life like this, which they have no reason to believe she won't, then eventually it will be a lot more than just embarrassing.

I get that it's a metaphor for the whole "unable to live a normal life" thing, but at least Buffy has the choice to walk away; Dawn doesn't, and they know (or at least think they know) who's responsible. It's such a very simple solution to the problem, and I don't get why nobody even suggests it.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

if Ted had stuck to Asimov's laws and Buffy's invisibility had turned out to not be life-threatening in and of itself, nobody would have raised an eyebrow?

In that situation, it would have become a lesson in tolerance and acceptance of people different to yourself. Buffy would have seen the parallel with herself and Angel and come to grudgingly accept Ted as a stepfather.

everyone would have lived happily ever after, except with Buffy staying invisible until she died of natural causes?

I'm pretty sure they would have continued to look for a cure... but half-heartedly, and fitting it in between other, more important and world-threatening crises. And Buffy would have found ways to capitalise on her invisibility to hellp in the fight against evil. And entire episodes might go by without a mention of them looking for a cure, since we could assume it was going on in the background.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure they would have continued to look for a cure... but half-heartedly, and fitting it in between other, more important and world-threatening crises.

Derailing the entire allegorical point of why she was turned invisible in the first place, losing a substantial portion of the viewers, not to mention in all likelihood pissing Sarah Michelle Gellar off... good thing they were on TV back then.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

It's lucky, really, that the allegorical point in 'Gone' was not "All of Buffy's friends are so consumed with the righteousness of their cause and the belief that only they can make a real difference in the fight agaist evil, that they're developing a blind spot to the real human cost of their fight." Because Buffy staying invisibile for most of the season would have fitted in perfectly with that metaphor.

Though you're right, they would have had to give Sarah another, extra part. Unless she went on maternity leave or something that year.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

There was snippy?

I brought up Maggie Walsh to highlight the fact that when Dawn was refusing to talk to anyone but the conspicuously absent Willow they didn’t know Kenny done it. He had means and motive but no more than Maggie who they knew was head of Demon Experiments Inc. and had recently argued with Giles over their Slayer related conflict of interests. With Ted I think they should have given Joyce all the information (he was a cookie drugging robot) and let her choose. Similarly blinvisible Buffy.

Why is going after the root of the problem "not so bright"?
Because from all the exposition we’ve been given in the comics Kenny isn’t the root of the problem or the key to solving it. Dawn is the key (and Ben is the Glory).

Willow says that they need to unembiggen her is to know what incantation Kenny used. Not where Kenny is. If threatening a thricewise into reversing a spell were a possibility Willow wouldn’t need Buffy to help her make that threat. Therefore, given that that particular solution is (as you rightly say) so obvious, the equally obvious (and in character interpretation) is that thricewise spells don’t work like vengeance wishes (and even with those sticking things with blunt objects doesn’t really do the job – both Hallie and D’Hoffryn responded to carrots not sticks). What they need is for Dawn to talk to them and Dawn chose not to (for reasons which were made abundantly clear when she did confess).

She should be in Berkeley, not known as the most dangerous place on earth.
To quote Sarah Connor “Nowhere is safe”. Here there be thricewises and worse (ex-boyfriends you carelessly broke the heart of and Parker types you were stupid enough to fall for). I also don’t get the impression Dawn wants to be (physically) safe. Buffy wants her to be, in the past to the point of chloroforming and kidnapping her but things seem to have improved from that nadir.

Lethal or makes the victim incapable of leading a normal human life, as Dawn currently is.
Does Dawn really value normal uber alles? Buffy used to talk about wanting nothing else but Dawn? Far less conventional. From #16 we and she know the spell is temporary and after the intial shock is over for all the snark she’s acting as if she actually relishes her legendary awesome. She's taking names and literally kicking ass.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

they didn’t know Kenny done it.

Buffy sure seems pretty convinced he had something to do with it; she specifically connects Dawn being a giant to Dawn sleeping with Kenny. She doesn't know for sure, no, but that should be all the more reason for her to investigate the matter.

With Ted I think they should have given Joyce all the information (he was a cookie drugging robot) and let her choose. Similarly blinvisible Buffy.

Right. So let's have the scoobies share the information they have on Dawn (such as what she told Xander in #10), find out all the facts, and give her a choice.

Because from all the exposition we’ve been given in the comics Kenny isn’t the root of the problem or the key to solving it.

By established Buffyverse logic, the person who put the curse on Dawn is the root of the problem and the key to solving it - like Ethan Rayne was in "Halloween", like Anyanka was in "The Wish", like Count Kurskov was in "Waiting in the Wings", like in every single episode ever where something like this happened (and there's a lot of them). As far as they know, the most likely candidate is Kenny. If it's not him, they should at least find out that it's not him.

Buffy wants her to be, in the past to the point of chloroforming and kidnapping her but things seem to have improved from that nadir.

Yup. Maybe someday Buffy will improve to the point where she doesn't care at all if people get in supernatural trouble... oh, wait.

Does Dawn really value normal uber alles?

Throughout Buffy and Angel, it was always portrayed as something negative for a human to be turned into a non-human. There may have been positive side-effects, but it was not a good thing in and of itself - and even the positive side-effects often turned out to be negative in the long run (Buffy relished her ability to read minds at first). Hell, Joss even refers to Dawn's condition as a "mystical STD", which doesn't make it sound any more awesome. And Dawn is saying she's miserable; she's dealing with it (now, 20 issues later - like I said above, I don't see why they didn't do this immediately when she really was truly miserable) because she has no other choice, but she's explicitly telling everyone else she doesn't want to be a giant or a centaur. They don't want her to be one either. They think they know who's behind it. Why is that such an impossible equuation? Why not help Dawn?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Buffy sure seems pretty convinced he had something to do with it

But she seems even more convinced that the underlying problem is that she and Dawn can’t talk about it.


By established Buffyverse logic, the person who put the curse on Dawn is the root of the problem and the key to solving it

But not in cases where the ‘victim’ is also part of the problem. Knowing that Amy changed herself into a rat didn’t help Willow de-rat her and the gypsies don’t seem able take the happiness clause out of Angel’s curse. Kennedy confronting Amy just made things worse by putting her in Willow’s firing line. Kenny’s spell seems all too like that penance malediction and if it is the cure can only happen when Dawn stops cursing herself for what she did.

Why not help Dawn?
If help means going Cosa Nostra on her ex it doesn’t seem that Dawn wants to be helped.


I don't see why they didn't do this immediately when she really was truly miserable) because she has no other choice, but she's explicitly telling everyone else she doesn't want to be a giant or a centaur.

Because Dawn wasn’t telling them what they needed to know to unembiggen her and that in itself is the clearest possible sign that being biggened wasn’t what was really making her miserable. She’s snarking about the downsides of being what she currently is but she’s never said what she wants to be and I think that might be key. What does Dawn want not what does Buffyverse convention dictate?

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

But she seems even more convinced that the underlying problem is that she and Dawn can’t talk about it.

Which goes to show how solipsistic Buffy's becoming. The causal relationship "Kenny turns Dawn into a monster" has nothing to do with Buffy; she has no influence on what HAS happened. She does have the possibility to make something ELSE happen, though, and she doesn't.

Kenny’s spell seems all too like that penance malediction and if it is the cure can only happen when Dawn stops cursing herself for what she did.

And if they'd actually asked Kenny about it, maybe we'd know if that were indeed the case. As it is, it's pure speculation which could easily be checked.

If help means going Cosa Nostra on her ex it doesn’t seem that Dawn wants to be helped.

Because in the Buffyverse, beating up the bad guy never solves anything. (OK, it's not usually that simple, but there's a reason SMG had a fight coach and stunt doubles, remember?) And again, if you notice, I never suggested beating him up as an end in itself; the point isn't to punish Kenny (though I wouldn't complain, and I get the feeling Buffy or Xander wouldn't either), it's is to find out what (if anything) he did to Dawn and how to reverse it. They did that exact thing with every single MOTW back in canon. Why not now? If it turns out he can't reverse it even if he wants to, fine; why won't they at least check the possibility?

She’s snarking about the downsides of being what she currently is but she’s never said what she wants to be

If she's turned from a girl into a giant, and wants to stop being a giant, might what she wants to be returned to possibly, conceivably, outside chance, be... a girl?

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

Because in the Buffyverse, beating up the bad guy never solves anything.
If the bad guy trying to destroy the world or eat people but in this situation its very unclear that Kenny is the bad guy. I'm thinking back to when Buffy took out that vamp whorehouse when the real problem was Riley. Or even when she went after faith for shooting her boyfriend. Mixing personal and Slayer business is bad business and this is Dawn's personal business not hers.

[elisi]

I've tried to block comic!Dawn from my mind, but this post really put the thing into perspective: Kenny is a vengeance demon. A male one, sure, and one who apparently doesn't need a wish to exact vengeance, but judging from what we know (which isn't much), Dawn cheated on him, and he cursed her. Sure she isn't stuck in a helldimension, being tortured, but that doesn't make what he *did* do right in any way, and I am baffled that no one (in s8) appears to realise this.

Then on the other hand, Joss apparently invented the whole thing because he thought that giant!Dawn would be hilarious, so... *shrugs*

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I am baffled that no one (in s8) appears to realise this

Well, they're all so full of praise and love for Kenny every time his name is mentioned...

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Which makes their non-action all the more puzzling.

[elisi]

*raises eyebrow in manner of Spike*

There is the fact that Dawn doesn't *talk* (except to Xander), but I think BG has a very valid point - why has no one gone to Kenny & made him undo the spell/curse?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Sure, it's a very reasonable question. But it's not hard to think of the answer, either.

BUFFY: Right then, I think it's time we paid Kenny a visit...
DAWN (panicked): NO! no! Absolutely not! Buffy, you can't do that. It's not his fault, he didn't...
BUFFY (striving for patience): Dawny, if he cast this spell on you, then...
DAWN: You don't know that he did! It might have been my f-uh, it might have been something else entirely that caused this!
BUFFY: Such as?
DAWN: Mind your own business! I'm not a kid anymore, I don't have to tell you about everything I do. I'll solve this problem myself.
BUFFY: And how do you expect to do that when you're fifty feet tall?
DAWN: I'll, uh, I'll talk to Willow when she gets back. She'll help me.
BUFFY: Dawn, we ALL want to help you. The sooner we get you turned back, the better-
DAWN (in a snit): Yeah, I'm really sorry that I'm being so *inconvenient* for you. It must be a real hardship.
BUFFY: Well, the food bills alone... um, I mean, don't YOU want to get back to normal?
DAWN: Of course I do.
BUFFY: So why won't you let me talk to Kenny?
DAWN: Bcause I know you. You'll threaten him and get all violent with him, and none of this is his fault!
BUFFY: I don't always...
DAWN: Promise me! Promise you won't go near Kenny, or lay a finger on him, unless I ask you to! Promise!
BUFFY: *sighs* Oh, all right. I promise. We'll try and fix this some other way. Although since you've ruled out the only obvious way to reverse the spell, I don't know how easy it's going to be...
DAWN (stubborn): I'll talk to Will when she gets back. She'll know how to help me.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

BUFFY: Normally, I'd say, you wanna play 'I have a secret'? Fine. But people are dying here.
DEBBIE: It... it's not his fault. I mean, he's not himself when he gets like this.
BUFFY: You mean Pete.
DEBBIE: It's me. I make him crazy. He-he just does what he does because he loves me too much.
WILLOW: But weren't Mr. Platt and Jeff murdered by an animal?
BUFFY: Pete's not like other guys, is he, Debbie?
DEBBIE: I-I've gotta go.
BUFFY: You have to talk to us. We can't help you until you do.
DEBBIE: I didn't ask for your help!
WILLOW: Well, when are you going to? I mean, if Pete kills you, it'll pretty much be too late.
BUFFY: Debbie, we're running out of time. Where can we find him?
DEBBIE: I-I don't know.
BUFFY: You're lying.
DEBBIE: What if I am? What are you gonna do about it?
WILLOW: Wrong question.
BUFFY: Look at yourself. Why are you protecting him? Anybody who really loved you couldn't do this to you.
DEBBIE: Would they take him someplace?
BUFFY: Probably.
DEBBIE: I could never do that to him. I'm his everything.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

BUFFY: Normally, I'd say, you wanna play 'I have a secret'? Fine. But people are not dying here.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

And as previously pointed out, Buffy (as presented in TV!canon) doesn't necessarily sit around twiddling her thumbs until people start dying. Especially when it comes to people she cares about. That's the neat thing about a magical, allegorical 'verse: death isn't the only threat that you have to deal with, there are more ways to ruin people's lives than just killing them.

There are plenty of examples where action is called for even when the person at risk stands no immediate risk of dying, but let's take one of the most obvious examples, from "The Gift":

WILLOW: Well, I do sort of have one idea, but, last few days I've mostly been looking into ways to help Tara. I know that shouldn't be my priority --
BUFFY: Of course it should.

But... Tara's not sick. Tara's not dying. There is nothing physically wrong with Tara (well, there's the broken hand, but that's healing fine without Willow's help). Tara's quite insane and as far as anyone knows will remain so indefinitely, but that's not life-threatening in any way. Willow's bravely dealing with the situation, taking the doctors' advice, learning how to care for her. Why should it be a priority to restore Tara's sanity? It's not like Tara's going anywhere; why not, at least, put it off until after they stop this apocalypse (and the one after that, and the one after that...)?

Because the show is not about magic or death but about being human and how we relate to others. If you can't help - if you don't even try to help - those closest to you, you can't possibly hope to (metaphorically) save the world.

Then again, maybe we were supposed to think Buffy was very wrong. Maybe she should have just told Willow to cheer up, maybe someday Tara would be dead, lol.

[elisi]

Yes, it is obvious that some variation of that conversation took place pre-s8 (I mean from a logical POV, I doubt the writers gave it even a moment's thought), but the problem is that we *know* that Joss decided to make Dawn a giant because it was funny, not from any sort wish to explore Dawn's character. He *could* have used the transformation to do something, or show us something, or whatever, but the only thing that's happened so far is the setting up of Xander/Dawn. Maybe.

Basically I quite simply don't care. I'm more worried about whether Spider survives AtF than about Dawn's fate. Spider has had character development, has grown and changed and developed, concepts entirely alien to comic!Dawn I'm afraid.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

if it's obvious mightn't that possibly be because the writers are doing more than making a big joke? Because where's the funny in that 'obvious' conversation? And the transformation story, which has shown us Dawn struggling to come to terms with the loss of own innocence, has done plenty more.

[elisi]

if it's obvious mightn't that possibly be because the writers are doing more than making a big joke?
I hope you're right. I really do. But they're being awfully slow.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Basically I quite simply don't care. I'm more worried about whether Spider survives AtF than about Dawn's fate. Spider has had character development, has grown and changed and developed, concepts entirely alien to comic!Dawn I'm afraid.

I think the difference between S8 and AtF is that S8 is treated like a season with saparate arcs that connect with each other, and it's about 40 issues. So it takes years until we reach the conclusion and solve the mystery.

AtF is like a movie with 17 issues. So the events happen faster and quickly to the point.

I'm with Enisy when she said, "I think, when both "seasons" are done, and we can go back and read them from start to end, Buffy: Season 8 is going to come off the deeper and more layered of the two. But as it stands now? Angel: After the Fall is far preferrable. With the month-long breaks between issues and the slow rate at which the developments are happening, I can't even be bothered to analyze or speculate on Buffy: Season 8 (plot-wise or character-wise), knowing that it will take ages for my guesses to be confirmed or negated."

Except I enjoy S8 more than AtF, but I do like AtF. I enjoy reading fans' speculatations. Plus, I relate more to Buffy, Xander and Willow, because their issues and experiences are closer to the ones I have, plus we're all the same age this season. :D

[elisi]

The problem is that I think s8 is on crack and all the characters are OOC - it's going to take a miracle to fix all the problems. (Something like everything being a dream would work.)

And quite frankly if a story isn't enjoyable as it's being told, then it's not doing its job very well. (AtF on the other hand has made me cry. Twice.)

ETA: Afraid I can't relate to the s8 Scoobies - nor can I relate them to their canon counterparts. The vampires, ghosts and freaks of AtF are far more real.